Secular Case Against Gay Marriage

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Secular Case Against Gay Marriage

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THE SECULAR CASE AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE

Adam Kolasinksi

Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason to grant them the costly benefits of marriage.

The Tech, Volume 124, Number 5
Tuesday, February 17, 2004

The debate over whether the state ought to recognize gay marriages has thus far focused on the issue as one of civil rights. Such a treatment is erroneous because state recognition of marriage is not a universal right. States regulate marriage in many ways besides denying men the right to marry men, and women the right to marry women. Roughly half of all states prohibit first cousins from marrying, and all prohibit marriage of closer blood relatives, even if the individuals being married are sterile. In all states, it is illegal to attempt to marry more than one person, or even to pass off more than one person as one's spouse. Some states restrict the marriage of people suffering from syphilis or other venereal diseases. Homosexuals, therefore, are not the only people to be denied the right to marry the person of their choosing.

I do not claim that all of these other types of couples restricted from marrying are equivalent to homosexual couples. I only bring them up to illustrate that marriage is heavily regulated, and for good reason. When a state recognizes a marriage, it bestows upon the couple certain benefits which are costly to both the state and other individuals. Collecting a deceased spouse's social security, claiming an extra tax exemption for a spouse, and having the right to be covered under a spouse's health insurance policy are just a few examples of the costly benefits associated with marriage. In a sense, a married couple receives a subsidy. Why? Because a marriage between to unrelated heterosexuals is likely to result in a family with children, and propagation of society is a compelling state interest. For this reason, states have, in varying degrees, restricted from marriage couples unlikely to produce children.

Granted, these restrictions are not absolute. A small minority of married couples are infertile. However, excluding sterile couples from marriage, in all but the most obvious cases such as those of blood relatives, would be costly. Few people who are sterile know it, and fertility tests are too expensive and burdensome to mandate. One might argue that the exclusion of blood relatives from marriage is only necessary to prevent the conception of genetically defective children, but blood relatives cannot marry even if they undergo sterilization. Some couples who marry plan not to have children, but without mind-reaching technology, excluding them is impossible. Elderly couples can marry, but such cases are so rare that it is simply not worth the effort to restrict them. The marriage laws, therefore, ensure, albeit imperfectly, that the vast majority of couples who do get the benefits of marriage are those who bear children.

Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason for the state to grant them the costly benefits of marriage, unless they serve some other state interest. The burden of proof, therefore, is on the advocates of gay marriage to show what state interest these marriages serve. Thus far, this burden has not been met.

One may argue that lesbians are capable of procreating via artificial insemination, so the state does have an interest in recognizing lesbian marriages, but a lesbian's sexual relationship, committed or not, has no bearing on her ability to reproduce. Perhaps it may serve a state interest to recognize gay marriages to make it easier for gay couples to adopt. However, there is ample evidence (see, for example, David Popenoe's Life Without Father) that children need both a male and female parent for proper development. Unfortunately, small sample sizes and other methodological problems make it impossible to draw conclusions from studies that directly examine the effects of gay parenting. However, the empirically verified common wisdom about the importance of a mother and father in a child's development should give advocates of gay adoption pause. The differences between men and women extend beyond anatomy, so it is essential for a child to be nurtured by parents of both sexes if a child is to learn to function in a society made up of both sexes. Is it wise to have a scoial policy that encourages family arrangements that deny children such essentials? Gays are not necessarily bad parents, nor will they necessarily make their children gay, but they cannot provide a set of parents that includes both a male and a female.

Some have compared the prohibition of homosexual marriage to the prohibition of interracial marriage. This analogy fails because fertility does not depend on race, making race irrelevant to the state's interest in marriage. By contrast, homosexuality is highly relevant because it precludes procreation.

Some argue that homosexual marriages serve a state interest because they enable gays to live in committed relationships. However, there is nothing stopping homosexuals from living in such relationships today. Advocates of gay marriage claim gay couples need marriage in order to have hospital visitation and inheritance rights, but they can easily obtain these rights by writing a living will and having each partner designate the other as trustee and heir. There is nothing stopping gay couples from signing a joint lease or owning a house jointly, as many single straight people do with roommates. The only benefits of marriage from which homosexual couples are restricted are those that are costly to the state and society.

Some argue that the link between marriage and procreation is not as strong as it once was, and they are correct. Until recently, the primary purpose of marriage, in every society around the world, has been procreation. In the 20th century, Western societies have downplayed the procreative aspect of marriage, much to our detriment. As a result, the happiness of the parties to the marriage, rather than the good of the children or the social order, has become its primary end, with disastrous consequences. When married persons care more about themselves than their responsibilities to their children and society, they become more willing to abandon these responsibilities, leading to broken homes, a plummeting birthrate, and countless other social pathologies that have become rampant over the last 40 years. Homosexual marriage is not the cause for any of these pathologies, but it will exacerbate them, as the granting of marital benefits to a category of sexual relationships that are necessarily sterile can only widen the separation between marriage and procreation.

The biggest danger homosexual civil marriage presents is the enshrining into law the notion that sexual love, regardless of its fecundity, is the sole criterion for marriage. If the state must recognize a marriage of two men simply because they love one another, upon what basis cant it deny marital recognition to a group of two men and three women, for example, or a sterile brother and sister who claim to love each other? Homosexual activists protest that they only want all couples treated equally. But why is sexual love between two people more worthy of state sanction that love between three, or five? When the purpose of marriage is procreation, the answer is obvious. If sexual love becomes the primary purpose, the restriction of marriage to couples loses its logical basis, leading to marital chaos.

Adam Kolasinski is a doctoral student in financial economics.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1082190/posts

My initial question then, is if procreation contributing to the state is what marriage rights should be based on, what grounds are there for denying multiple people the chance to get married? Wouldn't that increase the probability of children?

I've got some other thoughts too, I'll post them later after seeing what some other people think.
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Post by Psycho Smiley »

By that logic, only 1 procreative, fertile man and several procreative, fertile women should enter into each marriage, as that maximizes reproduction. Any loss of fertility should annul that portion of the marriage. I suppose all marriage benefits should end when all children have left home, too. What utter crap. Kolasinksi concedes that this is not feasible, but seems to think that in a perfect world, it should happen. Therefore, since we can exclude gay couples, we should. :roll:
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Re: Secular Case Against Gay Marriage

Post by Plekhanov »

There’s just so much faulty reasoning that it’s hard tyo know where to begin but one piece of bullshit did jump out at me:
a pretentious bigoted twat wrote: However, the empirically verified common wisdom about the importance of a mother and father in a child's development should give advocates of gay adoption pause
“Empirically verified common wisdom” ffs what the hell is that supposed to be? Is it just me or is it a desperate attempt to dress “anecdotally supported common sense” in respectable academic language?
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Post by Stormbringer »

Of course the secular case is just the fundamentalist case in denial. Go figure.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

So is the next step the demolition of all singles' bars?
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Re: Secular Case Against Gay Marriage

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Plekhanov wrote:There’s just so much faulty reasoning that it’s hard tyo know where to begin but one piece of bullshit did jump out at me:
a pretentious bigoted twat wrote: However, the empirically verified common wisdom about the importance of a mother and father in a child's development should give advocates of gay adoption pause
“Empirically verified common wisdom” ffs what the hell is that supposed to be? Is it just me or is it a desperate attempt to dress “anecdotally supported common sense” in respectable academic language?
"Empirically verified common wisdom" probably means because I was raised by two opposite sex parents, everyone should be.
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Post by Darth Wong »

This is exactly like the "intelligent design" supposedly-secular argument for special creation: a religious guy trying to make a secularized version of his viewpoint, with a lot of sophistry and long-winded verbiage piled on top of what is basically a religious mindset.
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Post by The Kernel »

What I find interesting is that the only "point" this seems to be making is that homosexuals are not involved in procreation, thus they should not be entitled to marriage benefits, which is flawed for two reasons.

The first of which is that there is no compulsion in heterosexual relationships to procreate; there are no penalties or fines if a heterosexual marriage does not produce a child.

The second problem is that it assumes that homosexuals will give nothing to the reproductive process, which is also obviously untrue. Homosexuals want to perpetuate themselves just as much as any other couple, and they can do this by methods like adoption (which also can perform a needed public service) and surrogate mothers/invitro fertilization. One walk down San Francisco's Castro will yield a site of hundreds of gay couples pushing strollers around (there was a recent NPR story about the sudden expolsion in parenting among Bay Area gay couples). In fact the main thing holding homosexual parenting up isn't the couples themselves but (you knew this was coming) reactionary fundies saying it would be a sin for gays to raise children.
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Post by Darth Wong »

If any of these guys can find language in the standard marriage license (or even the common Christian marriage vows, for that matter) that requires procreation, let them speak now, or forever shut the fuck up.
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Re: Secular Case Against Gay Marriage

Post by Rye »

Plekhanov wrote:There’s just so much faulty reasoning that it’s hard tyo know where to begin but one piece of bullshit did jump out at me:
a pretentious bigoted twat wrote: However, the empirically verified common wisdom about the importance of a mother and father in a child's development should give advocates of gay adoption pause
“Empirically verified common wisdom” ffs what the hell is that supposed to be? Is it just me or is it a desperate attempt to dress “anecdotally supported common sense” in respectable academic language?
They used the word "empirically" to make it sound scientific to secularists, i suspect.

It doesn't appear to be based in anything but "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" scaremongering though: http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html as that study says:
APA wrote: Overall, then, results of research to date suggest that children of lesbian and gay parents have normal relationships with peers and that their relationships with adults of both sexes are also satisfactory. The picture of lesbian mothers' children that emerges from results of existing research is thus one of general engagement in social life with peers, with fathers, and with mothers' adult friends--both male and female, both heterosexual and homosexual. Studies in this area to date are few, and the data emerging from them are sketchy. On the basis of existing research findings, however, fears about children of lesbians and gay men being sexually abused by adults, ostracized by peers, or isolated in single-sex lesbian or gay communities are unfounded.
Though naturally, the guy did try to poison the well on that study here:
Unfortunately, small sample sizes and other methodological problems make it impossible to draw conclusions from studies that directly examine the effects of gay parenting.
The whole procreation thing is a red herring, and traditionally a fundamentalist one. Why should gays have to go a retarded route to get the same goddamned rights as straight infertile marriages? He spouts a load of bullshit about the practical constraints of being as equal to infertile straights as gays when to me, the obvious resolution would be to not be so discriminatory against gays OR infertile people.

I dunno, the image the guy is portraying of the state...it's like we work for the state, and it's not there to make our lives better. That seems backward to me. I suspect the person writing it, is like an ID proponent, with their religious outlook being forced into a secular presentation, they think secularists have outlook x and then try to make it appeal to that outlook. Sorta backfired though.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

If you listen to the fundies, the "procreation" is implied. :roll:
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

Why does he try to compare incenstuous marriage between a brother and sister to homosexual conduct? Doesn't only ONE lead to genetic problems later on....?
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

OH wait. Mental note* he was comparing them to sterile individuals.

WHat exactly WOULD be the "immoral" thing about denying sterile brother's and sistesr to wed? Can they possibly do any harm? It's not like they could product genetically deficient individuals, and if homosexual marriage doesn't mess up children, why would that?
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Post by Plekhanov »

Thought it might be interesting to have a look at a few of the “facts” backing up this guys argument.
Kolasinksi wrote: Granted, these restrictions are not absolute. A small minority of married couples are infertile.
A “small minority” you say? Well according to a US Government (I know it’s a crappy link but it’s the best I could do) survey in 1995 there were 2.1 MILLION infertile married couples in the US (that’s only including women of Child bearing age btw). Another crappy link as far as I can tell based upon the same survey that:
A footnote to a friends fansite wrote:According to a 1995 survey, about 13.5 percent of married couples where the woman is aged 25-34 years old and has never had a child before are considered infertile.
13.5% that’s roughly 1 in 7 couples, seems a fair bit more than a “small minority” to me.
Kolasinksi wrote:Few people who are sterile know it,
But what about the ones that do know? Why not just have tick box on the marriage license saying “As far as I am aware I’m fertile” if fertility is so important?

Surely it wouldn’t be too complicated to set up a system whereby anybody who’s medical records reveal them to be infertile they get put on a national “doesn’t qualify for marriage list”.
and fertility tests are too expensive and burdensome to mandate.
Are they really that expensive? According to www.spermtest.com I can get myself a home test kit for £30 if I want a test in a clinic www.thebridgecentre.co.uk will do me one for £85. For women it’s pricier with an initial consultation costing £125 and the total cost of a range of 5 “diagnostic investigations” coming to £1173. No doubt all of these services would be much cheaper through the NHS.

I’m a bit confused here because Kolasinki argues marriage should be restricted to heterosexuals because marriage provides “certain benefits which are costly to both the state and other individuals.” That is to say married couples costs society lots of money, if that’s the case how can he argue that a £85 sperm test would be “too expensive” to vet males seeking to enter this privileged state?

If roughly 1in7 married couples of childbearing age are infertile and leeching “costly benefits” from society that they simply don’t deserve and it would cost a mere £85 each to filter out these unworthy males and £1500 for females surely the tests would pay for themselves.
Kolasinksi wrote:Some couples who marry plan not to have children, but without mind-reaching technology, excluding them is impossible.
Until we develop the mind reading machines why not just get them to declare their intention to procreate under oath at the marriage ceremony?
Kolasinksi wrote:Elderly couples can marry, but such cases are so rare that it is simply not worth the effort to restrict them.
Well according to the British Government In 2002 16,540 Women over 50 (which I’m using as conservative cut off for likely procreation) that’s about 7% of the total. By Kolasinki’s logic that’s 16,540 couples sponging off society taking the “costly benefits” that only the fertile deserve, surely we can’t let them get away with this.

If the benefits of marriage are so “costly” why not just ban all women over 50 or all women who’s medical records show they’ve undergone the menopause from marrying? That should be an extremely cost efficient law to enact.
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Post by salm »

donkey raper wrote:Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason to grant them the costly benefits of marriage.
if that´s the logic we use then i´m all for it. after all the churches do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society either, so there´s no reason to grant them the costly benefits of collecting their taxes (like here) or granting them to be tax free like in the states.

let´s just prohibit gay marriage and churches.

oh, and while we´re at that we could also ban all institution which benefit only minorities. for example special schools for the deaf, dumb or blind.
no, forget it. lets just ban the deaf, dumb and blind themselves and all the other handicaped. after all they don´t do anything to benefit society either. they acutally COST society money. i don´t want to pay anybody to wipe one of these worthles mongoloid´s ass.
lets face it: retards are terrorists. they deserve to be rounded up and smoked out of their holes.

and ban the fucking paralympics.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:Why does he try to compare incenstuous marriage between a brother and sister to homosexual conduct? Doesn't only ONE lead to genetic problems later on....?
Not only that, but it invalidates his own argument, since a brother and sister definitely can procreate and genetic damage is not guarateed--the Ptolemies were marrying their sisters and daughters for about two hundred and fifty years and Cleopatra does not appear to have ended up either infertile, mentally retarded, or physically handicapped, despite being the product of a family which had practiced incestuous inbreeding for a quarter of a millennia. Under his system a sterile brother and sister would be unable to marry but there would be no reason and indeed every reason to not ban incest between fertile relatives. But of course that just shows how hollow the entire strict genetic-deterministic standpoint is, since there are obviously severe sociological and mental health consequences to incest, which do not exist in homosexual relationships.
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Post by Rye »

An interesting point on the incestuous relationships, isn't it saying that injustice to one group of people is ok, therefore it's ok to homosexuals, or was he playing on peoples' emotions about the "icky yet hypothetically unjustifiable" nature of incest as a basis for an argument against homosexuality?
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Post by Rye »

Unjustifiable denial of rights* rather, about incest.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Rye wrote:Unjustifiable denial of rights* rather, about incest.
It was a pure scare tactic. He could have used two completely unrelated sterile people--there is no difference except in the response of others, since they are sterile. Unless there is some sort of implication about family relations but that would be utter bunk since obviously homosexuals do not go off sleeping with their relatives any more than anyone else, IE, it's an extreme rarity.
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