Japan's Navy put on high alert due to unidentified sub

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-11-14 04:06am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
While undoubtedly true if the stuff's not declassified, it is honestly a little hypocritical to use the word "illegal" to describe blabbing out the United States' illegal actions (everyone may do it, but it still isn't legal) during the Cold War.

The people involved signed documents specifically committing them to secrecy. If they are told to talk by say a court, that's one thing, going out to the press is quite another.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-11-14 06:09am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Thats nice, but I rather think that the Chinese dont know exactly how capable the Japanese are. This is an advantage tactically and at the political level as it effects how governments and sub commanders work. In this case the Chinese would have known that this noisy old bucket would be dectectable easily but not nessesarily how easily.
They already knew their Han subs are easily detected. All they need is to buy a copy of Hostile Waters or Blind Man's Bluff. If they can't read English, I'm sure they have translators. If they had to wait until this to realize it, it is a wonder the country hasn't collapsed already.

I'm not sure that this plan of tending the uncertainty towards an underestimate is such a good idea. Because as a Chinese commander, there are several ways to read this, but one of them goes like this:
1) Han wasn't detected until it got into Japanese territorial waters (given).
2) Japan takes days to confirm the classification of that noisy old fart (given).
3) Thus Japanese ASW is not that good (induction).
4) Using a newer boat, say a Kilo or the new Type 93 when it comes into service, it might be totally undetectable before it can wreak major harm (extrapolation).
5) This is a fact we can use to pressure Japan (conclusion).

And this will be the scenario that the PRC senior leadership would like to hear when they decide they need military options to pressure Japan over something. I fear this would likely be the only one they'd hear in such a case.

Letting them have this attitude is fine if the Japanese are in fact in total control, so when the Chinese actually try anything, they would hear torpedo tubes flooding from a Japanese submarine a single kilometer aft they never even heard.

But if not, encouraging this attitude in the Chinese isn't that good. You don't want them risking on this possibility, succeeding, and getting concessions because of that.

Meh, weather the Chinese know or dont know what the J's are capable of, I dont know and I am quite sure the Chinese wont tell so none of us will ever know for sure. and I am sure the J's shall act as they see fit

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-11-16 06:08am

China apologises for sub incursion.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-11-16 07:52am

Rogue 9 wrote: Ramming in a submarine? They like losing subs or something?

Remember that the Project 945 Sierra-class SSN, the K-239 Tula (since renamed) got involved in a collision with the SSN-688 Baton Rouge back in February 1992. It suffered minor damage, while the Baton Rouge was decommissioned a year later (it was the second SSN-688 built, and the first ever to be decommed, with only 16 years of service).

The Tula was since renamed and repaired.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-11-16 08:04am

Vympel wrote:Remember that the Project 945 Sierra-class SSN, the K-239 Tula (since renamed) got involved in a collision with the SSN-688 Baton Rouge back in February 1992. It suffered minor damage, while the Baton Rouge was decommissioned a year later (it was the second SSN-688 built, and the first ever to be decommed, with only 16 years of service).

The Tula was since renamed and repaired.

Well, the Sierra was made with titanium, and honestly, given the Russian economy vs the US, I'm not sure whether this was an "even trade" for the Russians

How good is Russian steel? I know the US, as far as is unclassified, uses about HY-80 with maybe some HY-100 for its LAs, and may be going up a bit for the Seawolf.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-11-16 08:12am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Well, the Sierra was made with titanium, and honestly, given the Russian economy vs the US, I'm not sure whether this was an "even trade" for the Russians

How good is Russian steel? I know the US, as far as is unclassified, uses about HY-80 with maybe some HY-100 for its LAs, and may be going up a bit for the Seawolf.

No idea- all I know is that the 971 Akulas went with steel because the titanium 945s were too expensive to build (but not to maintain, all but one of the ... four built are still in service), yet they achieved Sierra level performance on the Akulas, which was supposed to be really good (the Sierra was supposed to be *the* SSN that replaced the Victor III series). I don't recall what the advantages of titanium construction was ...

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-11-16 10:22am

Vympel wrote:No idea- all I know is that the 971 Akulas went with steel because the titanium 945s were too expensive to build (but not to maintain, all but one of the ... four built are still in service), yet they achieved Sierra level performance on the Akulas, which was supposed to be really good (the Sierra was supposed to be *the* SSN that replaced the Victor III series). I don't recall what the advantages of titanium construction was ...

Probably the maximum depth. I think the estimates for Sierra was rated to about 700m, the Never Exceed is at 800 and Crush is at maybe 900. The Akula, like one might expect from the steel boat, is rated for the equivalent of about 400m. In other respects they are pretty close. The Sierra also was the only Russian sub to ever use the US style spherical sonar (MGK-700).