Latest on BBC on Fallujah?

[LordShaithis]

Not to mention running their own concentration camps after the war and sticking Germans in them. The War in Iraq, on the other hand, is being sold as a "liberation" of the Iraqi people.

Ok, for the record I'll state that I'm... mostly... joking when I suggest torching mosques and nuking Mecca. But I get tired of these stupid threads where it's "An American soldier wore his shoes into a mosque! An American shot an insurgent in the back! An American made a mean face at a mullah! Now all the Muslims will hate us! Oh nooooo!"

Anyway, to the point, are you really going to start running that "REVENGE CONCENTRATION CAMP!" nonsense again, Mike? It's been brought up before, and I believe all that was established was that American POW camps had a higher mortality rate than the British ones, but still a lower mortality rate than the USSR and Axis camps.

Unless you can prove that A) the Americans were rounding up the general German populace, or perhaps B) that the primary purpose of these camps was to kill people, I don't see the point of calling them concentration camps.

[Coyote]

I have mixed thoughts on this whole thing. ...Yet all my training screams that any violation of the Conventions or UCMJ is wrong and there is no excuse for it...

It is unfortunate that the enemy is using our own values against us. Do acts such as those mean that we can remove the protection afforded to them by the Conventions? Of course they are not signitory to them so they have no obligation to fight as civilised people...

However Conventions and motivations aside, is it illegal under the UCMJ to kill an unarmed wounded man?

You and I got pretty much the same training. And I agree wholeheartedly that we should not use any justification to suspend the UCMJ or simple common decency and ethics. It goes to the very heart of military professional bearing. If nothing else, we should be able to walk away from this war, upon its conclusion, and say "we didn't sink to that level."

But after the 10th "wounded" guy has booby-trapped himself and killed some of your buddies, what are you supposed to do? I ask that not as a smart ass or to challenge you or justify anything... but as an honest dilemma. I'm glad I've never been faced with this situation.

Right now our ROE has changed. Zarquari's guys are handing out realistic-looking toy guns to children here, telling them to go out and "play" with the Americans. They are setting children up to be killed on accident by GIs who have seen too many children using real guns. Just a few days ago we processed a 14 year old boy as a prisoner who was part of an RPG team. What are we supposed to do about that?

[CJvR]

Just let's turn this round a minute.

Let's say that film had been obtained of an Iraqi insurgent blowing away a wounded american marine playing dead.

I know the situations are not entirely the same, but people would be baying for the insurgents blood.

That did happen in Afghanistan but then it was mostly a reminder to all why A-Q needs to die.

[FBHthelizardmage]

That did happen in Afghanistan but then it was mostly a reminder to all why A-Q needs to die.

Maybe so, however, considering that your reaction to this is that it proves those doing it to you need to die, what do you think the reaction of normal iraqi's will be to you doing it to their fellow arabs?

The point of the opperations in Iraq is to bring democracy and then leave a stable american friendly iraq. Excuting wounded isn't going to help that.

[Beowulf]

That did happen in Afghanistan but then it was mostly a reminder to all why A-Q needs to die.

Maybe so, however, considering that your reaction to this is that it proves those doing it to you need to die, what do you think the reaction of normal iraqi's will be to you doing it to their fellow arabs?

The point of the opperations in Iraq is to bring democracy and then leave a stable american friendly iraq. Excuting wounded isn't going to help that.

Put yourself in this Marine's boots. He's been hearing about terrorist booby trapping bodies, playing dead only to set off a hand grenade, and wounded ones crying for a doctor only to shoot those trying to help them. Yesterday, your best buddy just got blown up from someone playing dead. Today, you see a guy without his hands visible, and looking as if he's trying to play dead. What do you do?

[Knife]

Put yourself in this Marine's boots. He's been hearing about terrorist booby trapping bodies, playing dead only to set off a hand grenade, and wounded ones crying for a doctor only to shoot those trying to help them. Yesterday, your best buddy just got blown up from someone playing dead. Today, you see a guy without his hands visible, and looking as if he's trying to play dead. What do you do?

He would be shot, while trying to determine the exact legal expectations of the event. I would shoot the guy if he looked like a threat to me, and then move on.

These Marines/soldiers are operating under the idea of 'better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6' and they're right to do so. The intent of the GC is to protect inocent people, not give a loophole for assnuts to kill Americans and have us go into litigation/liable mode.

[Aaron]

You and I got pretty much the same training. And I agree wholeheartedly that we should not use any justification to suspend the UCMJ or simple common decency and ethics. It goes to the very heart of military professional bearing. If nothing else, we should be able to walk away from this war, upon its conclusion, and say "we didn't sink to that level."

Agreed.

But after the 10th "wounded" guy has booby-trapped himself and killed some of your buddies, what are you supposed to do? I ask that not as a smart ass or to challenge you or justify anything... but as an honest dilemma. I'm glad I've never been faced with this situation.

I don't know. I have never been in this situation. In the case described above I would probably kill him too. It's against everything I consider right, but if he killed one of my buddies and I could have prevented it I could never live with myself.

Right now our ROE has changed. Zarquari's guys are handing out realistic-looking toy guns to children here, telling them to go out and "play" with the Americans. They are setting children up to be killed on accident by GIs who have seen too many children using real guns.

So what does the ROE say about the kids with toy guns? It can be very hard to distinguish between a real gun and a toy one, especially at a distance.

Just a few days ago we processed a 14 year old boy as a prisoner who was part of an RPG team. What are we supposed to do about that?

FUCK! I seem to remember this happening in Somalia as well. I really don't know what to do about that. I suppose there really isn't much choice in the matter. If a armed 14 year old is trying to kill you, what choice do you have but to kill him first. I certainly wouldn't feel good about it though. Thats the kind of thing that fucks people up for life.

[FBHthelizardmage]

Put yourself in this Marine's boots. He's been hearing about terrorist booby trapping bodies, playing dead only to set off a hand grenade, and wounded ones crying for a doctor only to shoot those trying to help them. Yesterday, your best buddy just got blown up from someone playing dead. Today, you see a guy without his hands visible, and looking as if he's trying to play dead. What do you do?

I'd hope I had the corage not to kill the wounded guy on the floor. I don't know whether I do, I also hope I never get put in such a situation.

The marines actions are entirely understandable, however, that doesn't mean they should be condoned if we are to demand that american prisoners are not similarly treated.

[Knife]

I'd hope I had the corage not to kill the wounded guy on the floor. I don't know whether I do, I also hope I never get put in such a situation.

Courage to NOT kill the guy?

How about the tactical analitical ability to determine that he is NOT a threat, and there by not shooting him. The Marine already displayed his courage in being in a shitstorm war in a shithole city I'm sure he really doesn't want to be in.

The marines actions are entirely understandable, however, that doesn't mean they should be condoned if we are to demand that american prisoners are not similarly treated.

One doesn't compare to the other. One, I agree that we should treat prisoners well, but half of being a prisoner is BEING in custody. This guy wasn't and thereby there was doubt. Two, American captives this far haven't even been treated close to that of the Arab prisoners. It can be argued that even with this event AND the prison scandal, the Iraqi and insurgent POW's are still being treated better than Western hostages.

[FBHthelizardmage]

Courage to NOT kill the guy?

How about the tactical analitical ability to determine that he is NOT a threat, and there by not shooting him. The Marine already displayed his courage in being in a shitstorm war in a shithole city I'm sure he really doesn't want to be in.

That to, but still, it's courage to endure personal risk by not simple shooting the guy in the face because he might have a grenade.

One doesn't compare to the other. One, I agree that we should treat prisoners well, but half of being a prisoner is BEING in custody. This guy wasn't and thereby there was doubt.

How was he not in Custody? he was lieing wounded on the floor of a house surrounded by american marines. That seems rather in custody to me.

Two, American captives this far haven't even been treated close to that of the Arab prisoners. It can be argued that even with this event AND the prison scandal, the Iraqi and insurgent POW's are still being treated better than Western hostages.

Once again we come back to the point that:
A: We're better than they are.
B: We're the agressors
C: We've also killed thosands of Iraqi civilians by bombing them.
D: That killing prisoners is counter productive to the mission of building a democratic prowestern Iraq.

[Knife]

That to, but still, it's courage to endure personal risk by not simple shooting the guy in the face because he might have a grenade.

It's courageous to stand up for your moral and ethical standards, but to say that it is courageous to not shoot a potential threat when entering a hostile enviroment, thats stupidity of epic porportions to equal Sokartawi.

If the guy has a gernade, or an explosive, it is not courage to not take action and have your whole fireteam and/or squad killed. The Marines were not in a free zone, not in a hospital, not in a happy fuzzy warm place, they were in a combat zone. He took action on a possible threat. Notice the other guy who identified himself as a prisoner is still kicking and breathing.

How was he not in Custody? he was lieing wounded on the floor of a house surrounded by american marines. That seems rather in custody to me.

No its not. What's your definiton of cusody? He was lying wounded in a house surrounded by Marines, but that house was not controlled by Marines. See the difference. That guy could have had just about anything and the Marines entering the house would not know it.

I feel sorry for the guy, but the Marine thought he was a threat. He didn't just walk up and execute the guy nor did he behead him. He yelled at his buddies that the guy was a threat and then shot him when he moved. This is called combat. Welcome.

Once again we come back to the point that:
A: We're better than they are.
B: We're the agressors
C: We've also killed thosands of Iraqi civilians by bombing them.
D: That killing prisoners is counter productive to the mission of building a democratic prowestern Iraq.

A. So? That means we should let them kill us using our rules against us? That wouldn't make us better than them, just dumber.

B. *shrug* We've been fucking with these asshats for a decade. They're not clean as the preachers sheets either.

C. *shrug* regrettable. Though I've noticed that the insurgents are killing an awefull large amount of Iraqi's and civilians too.

D. Letting the insurgents nickel and dime us because our ROE's are too restrictive and we as a nation go bat shit over something that they are purposely using to make political hayday, is counter productive to the mission.

[FBHthelizardmage]

If the guy has a gernade, or an explosive, it is not courage to not take action and have your whole fireteam and/or squad killed. The Marines were not in a free zone, not in a hospital, not in a happy fuzzy warm place, they were in a combat zone. He took action on a possible threat. Notice the other guy who identified himself as a prisoner is still kicking and breathing.

The marine didn't even give a warning, he just saw he was alive, and shot him. If he thought he had a grenade he should have at least demanded he show his hands. For all we know the guy was so badly wounded he couldn't kick.

No its not. What's your definiton of cusody? He was lying wounded in a house surrounded by Marines, but that house was not controlled by Marines. See the difference. That guy could have had just about anything and the Marines entering the house would not know it.

Yet he made no effort to check at all, he simple murdered the guy.

I feel sorry for the guy, but the Marine thought he was a threat. He didn't just walk up and execute the guy nor did he behead him. He yelled at his buddies that the guy was a threat and then shot him when he moved. This is called combat. Welcome.

He wasn't a threat, and the marine made no effort to check, even in a combat zone, thats imoral.

A. So? That means we should let them kill us using our rules against us? That wouldn't make us better than them, just dumber.

If the Marine had made an effort to check at all, then I'd agree, he didn't, thats murder.

B. *shrug* We've been fucking with these asshats for a decade. They're not clean as the preachers sheets either.

Irrelvant to the issue, we smashed Sadams pathetic military in 1991, he was no threat.

C. *shrug* regrettable. Though I've noticed that the insurgents are killing an awefull large amount of Iraqi's and civilians too.

Do you understand the concept that just because they do it, doesn't me we can?

D. Letting the insurgents nickel and dime us because our ROE's are too restrictive and we as a nation go bat shit over something that they are purposely using to make political hayday, is counter productive to the mission.

Well, unless you intend to depopulate Iraq, or go roman or british and line the highways with bodies of suspected insurgents, the only way you'll win this is by reducing the level of hatered. This kind of thing isn't going to do that.

[Aaron]

The marine didn't even give a warning, he just saw he was alive, and shot him. If he thought he had a grenade he should have at least demanded he show his hands. For all we know the guy was so badly wounded he couldn't kick.

Hey buddy, if he had shown his hands and was in fact holding a grenade than that is his chance to drop it and kill some infidels.

[Coyote]

ROE regarding the kids is to have positive identification (PID) before engaging-- we're told to "use our best judgement". For example, the average malnourished 8-year-old won't be able to wave a actual, loaded AK around like it was nothing...

But the truth is, if we feel threatened, then we are to shoot. If that Marine felt threatened, he should have shot. It is not pretty, fun, or clear-cut. That is why wars are messy things best avoided.

As far as us being the aggressors, I am of the opinion that this observation is partially correct-- we are the aggressors for this round. I thibnk the Jihad movement has been spoiling for a fight with the "Imperialist West" for decades, and my years of study in this matter only reinforces this belief of mine.

I think we would have been over here in one war or another sooner or later-- let's not fool ourselves and say that had we invaded Afghanistan and stopped there, and never set foot in another Arab-Muslim country, that terrorism and Western hatred would have stopped.

But here in Iraq, things have begun to turn... we are getting good tips and better welcomes from the people on the streets, and I am seeing more pro-US grafitti. The brutal butchering of Mrs. Hasan, the CARE worker, has pushed a lot of people who were fence-sitting into an attitude more against the Jihadis.

The beheadings made the locals uncomfortable to beginwith-- Hasan's treatment was met with disgust here by the average Iraqi. As long as we continue to be the better option-- in the big picture-- we will make progress.

This incident with the wounded man should be investigated, but let's not get too suprised if little happens to him under the circumstances.

[FBHthelizardmage]

Hey buddy, if he had shown his hands and was in fact holding a grenade than that is his chance to drop it and kill some infidels.

And if he already had the pin pulled, then shooting him wouldn't have helped.

If he hadn't, the marines would have had time to get out. It isn't entirely safe but it's better than murdering the guy.