Yuschenko was poisoned, definitively.

[Aaron]

Because the Opposition is pro-EU and the current governement is pro-Imperial Russia.
Ukraine is a part of the CIS and would most likely be forced to leave the CIS if it want a chance to join the EU.
Therefor it would be advantageous for the Czar if Yushenko "got ill and died" with a swift cover-up about the cause of death. Not impossible when you consider the level of corruption in Ukraine.

Plus poisoning just screams "KGB!".

I think that this covers it nicely:

Before we jump on the Putin-bashing bandwagon (for this specific case, anyway... there's plenty to bash Czar Vladimir for on other counts) remember that a lot of old KGB people ended up unemployed or moving to more lucrative freelance work in the wake of the fall of the USSR, so this could have been a freelance mercenary operation at the behest of the local Ukrainians, and hell, it could've even been an in-house op entirely.

I'll wager good money that even if Putin's people did have a direct hand in it the layers of deniability will be such that we'll never get an accurate picture. The lifespan of potential informants can easily be shortened, too.

[Darth Wong]

I wonder what Vympel has to say about this?

Or Stas Bush. Perhaps he's going to disappear on another year-long vacation.

[Raptor 597]

I wonder what Vympel has to say about this?

Or Stas Bush. Perhaps he's going to disappear on another year-long vacation.

Well atleast he'll bring back evidence and arguments to threads everyone forgot about.

[Ma Deuce]

Well atleast he'll bring back evidence and arguments to threads everyone forgot about.

He may even dig up this very thread and argue that Yushchenko poisoned himself for political gain...

[Vympel]

I see no reason to immediately assume Putin was involved- Ukraine has its *own* security apparatus that could've easily done it. I'll wait to see what this probe says.

[fgalkin]

I see no reason to immediately assume Putin was involved- Ukraine has its *own* security apparatus that could've easily done it. I'll wait to see what this probe says.

Not denying it anymore, eh?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Illuminatus Primus]

I wish I could 'shop one of Vympel's pictures into the uniform of a Soviet commissar and give it a bubble reading "There are no dioxins in the Opposition candidate's body. The dioxins are committing suicide at the gates of Baghdad--er Moscow--er Kiev, yes Kiev!."

[Vympel]

I see no reason to immediately assume Putin was involved- Ukraine has its *own* security apparatus that could've easily done it. I'll wait to see what this probe says.

Not denying it anymore, eh?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I don't deny he was *poisoned*, and if you go over the posts I have made on this topic, I never denied that he was suffering from some sort of poisoning. What I do deny, on the basis of a total lack of evidence, is that this poisoning was

a: deliberate
b: necessarily done by Putin and his KG-er-I-mean-FSB.

These doctors don't have any expertise about poisoning in a criminal sense whatsoever- you can cop food poisoning without it being someone trying to kill you, their speculation as to the possible involvement of a third party is just that- speculation.

There's no evidence that this was deliberate, and until there is, its just as plausible that dioxins could've been building up to dangerous levels in this guy's system for years.

[fgalkin]

I see no reason to immediately assume Putin was involved- Ukraine has its *own* security apparatus that could've easily done it. I'll wait to see what this probe says.

Not denying it anymore, eh?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I don't deny he was *poisoned*. What I do deny, on the basis of a total lack of evidence, is that this poisoning was

a: deliberate
b: necessarily done by Putin and his KG-er-I-mean-FSB.

These doctors don't have any expertise about poisoning in a criminal sense whatsoever- you can cop food poisoning without it being someone trying to kill you, their speculation as to the possible involvement of a third party is just that- speculation.

I'm a lawyer. There's no evidence that this was deliberate.

What are the chances you eat a 1000-times larger than normal dose of dioxin? In the middle of a presidential campaign?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Vympel]

What are the chances you eat a 1000-times larger than normal dose of dioxin? In the middle of a presidential campaign?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Pure speculation. Who said that one day he just sat down and ate something with 1000 times stronger dose of dioxin than normal? Where's the proof of such? See above (I edited my post).

[Vympel]

Yes, that's right, we still don't fucking know if it was deliberate, and no amount of threads declaring that he was deliberately poisoned when noone actually reads the damn articles thoroughly will change that fact

[Omega18]

Yes, that's right, we still don't fucking know if it was deliberate, and no amount of threads declaring that he was deliberately poisoned when noone actually reads the damn articles thoroughly will change that fact

Ok, look at this way. Here's a quote from a scientist about how much dioxin was in him and how unusual this is.

A prominent international toxicologist, John Henry, told the BBC today that Yushchenko’s case was, in his experience, unique.

Doctors in Vienna said Yushchenko’s blood and tissue registered concentrations of dioxin that were 1,000 times above normal levels.

“It’s usually low-level, long-term poisoning,” said Henry, a professor at Imperial College in London and a consultant to Britain’s National Poisons Information Service. “We’ve never had a case like this – a known case of large, severe dioxin poisoning.”

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3876348

In other words, no-one has apparently ever accidently received such a high concentration of dioxin before. Now I supposed theotically even though he's a prominent politician who was involved with an election at the time, he could have been the first person in the world accidently poisoned in such a way, but its also theoretically possible that OJ didn't kill his ex-wife, and aliens did so and framed OJ afterwards, but I don't consider either possibility very likely!

As far as the all at once diagnosis, a key component seems to have been the major damage to his intenstional track and digestive system the doctors were talking about, this means that the poison was injested, but also gives the doctors key evidence on how the poisoning occured. The doctors could take a look at whether the damage occured all at once previously and has been healing since, or was a prolonged sequence with the body trying to heal and more damage occuring afterwards. The doctors are fully qualified and capable of determining the difference and this is how they can say with confidence the poising must of occured pretty much all at once. (This doesn't rule out multiple meals on the same day, but it definately rules out a poisoning over a series of years theory. The other major question with the accidental over a prolonged period theory is how on earth Yushchenko was the only one to deceive the dioxin poisoning.

There are very sound reasons for believing Yushchenko was deliberately poisoned.[/quote]

[White Haven]

I'd find it especially telling that 'no one' also includes chemical plant workers and such. In all the plants over all the years that ditoxin has been present, not one of the people with daily exposure to the stuff has had this sort of massive dose. And yet, suddenly, we have a politicial candidate running against an incubment government who we know fudged the election who shows up with the first ever case. Putin or not, that's beyond the realm of what the evidence can show, but questioning whether it was a deliberate poisoning or not is really, really stretching the boundaries of credibility.

[Stormbringer]

I'd find it especially telling that 'no one' also includes chemical plant workers and such. In all the plants over all the years that ditoxin has been present, not one of the people with daily exposure to the stuff has had this sort of massive dose.

And especially being that the USSR had nothing like the EPA or OSHA. They've had a lot of nasty industrial accidents and general slackness means it's a health mess. Yet never a case like this, it's telling indeed.

And yet, suddenly, we have a politicial candidate running against an incubment government who we know fudged the election who shows up with the first ever case. Putin or not, that's beyond the realm of what the evidence can show, but questioning whether it was a deliberate poisoning or not is really, really stretching the boundaries of credibility.

The problem is that the people that have a realistic motive beyond being hired, is a relatively short one. And Putin's near the top of that list. And well, the USSR might be gone but you wouldn't know it from his conduct.

[Sriad]

Anyone else reminded of Zodiac? (Neal Stephenson eco-thriller)

Suggesting that Yushchenko's condition wasn't caused deliberately is absurd as saying someone with a gunshot wound fell on the bullet. The poisoning happened before September fifth. It was only in the latest round of tests, conducted THIS WEEK, that the level of dioxin in his blood was found to be one thousand times normal. If y'all don't feel like doing the math, that's three months after the incident.

[Vympel]

Anyone else reminded of Zodiac? (Neal Stephenson eco-thriller)

Suggesting that Yushchenko's condition wasn't caused deliberately is absurd as saying someone with a gunshot wound fell on the bullet. The poisoning happened before September fifth. It was only in the latest round of tests, conducted THIS WEEK, that the level of dioxin in his blood was found to be one thousand times normal. If y'all don't feel like doing the math, that's three months after the incident.

And of course you have evidence as to when the poisoning happened? I wish people would stop pretending that they know anything at all about dioxin poisoning and what's "absurd" or not. This deliberate poisoning plot makes no bloody sense- why would someone choose dioxin, of which there has never been a fatality? To generate sympathy for this guy and let him claim his evil Soviet-throwback enemies (continue demonization of opposition as required) tried to knock him off? And then have us believe it was *KGB* elements, who could've killed him easily by just sending him a poisoned letter?

[Darth Wong]

There's no evidence that this was deliberate, and until there is, its just as plausible that dioxins could've been building up to dangerous levels in this guy's system for years.

You're not serious, are you? Why would there be a sudden and dramatic onset of massive health problems and disfiguring skin conditions associated with this long-term low-level poisoning theory of yours? Do you think smokers generally have great health for 50 years and then suddenly over a period of a few months go straight to hell?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Anyone else reminded of Zodiac? (Neal Stephenson eco-thriller)

Suggesting that Yushchenko's condition wasn't caused deliberately is absurd as saying someone with a gunshot wound fell on the bullet. The poisoning happened before September fifth. It was only in the latest round of tests, conducted THIS WEEK, that the level of dioxin in his blood was found to be one thousand times normal. If y'all don't feel like doing the math, that's three months after the incident.

And of course you have evidence as to when the poisoning happened? I wish people would stop pretending that they know anything at all about dioxin poisoning and what's "absurd" or not. This deliberate poisoning plot makes no bloody sense- why would someone choose dioxin, of which there has never been a fatality? To generate sympathy for this guy and let him claim his evil Soviet-throwback enemies (continue demonization of opposition as required) tried to knock him off? And then have us believe it was *KGB* elements, who could've killed him easily by just sending him a poisoned letter?

DO you have an alternate explanation other than accidental poisoning that makes sense? Not the KGB part, but the "It was not deliberate" part.

Having a concentration of a toxin ver 1000 times the norm is indicative of deliberate poisoning. Especially if that concentration is near the time of the onset f symptoms, characterized by a sudden radical change in appearance, and partial paralysis. You think if he was slowly pisoning himself accidentally every day, he would notice a bad case of acne or something.

It is like looking at someone with anti-freeze or arsenic poisoning and saying "Are you sure you didnt mix a small amount of anti-freeze with your morning shake every day for flavor?" it is an obvious intentional poisoning.

[fgalkin]

Anyone else reminded of Zodiac? (Neal Stephenson eco-thriller)

Suggesting that Yushchenko's condition wasn't caused deliberately is absurd as saying someone with a gunshot wound fell on the bullet. The poisoning happened before September fifth. It was only in the latest round of tests, conducted THIS WEEK, that the level of dioxin in his blood was found to be one thousand times normal. If y'all don't feel like doing the math, that's three months after the incident.

And of course you have evidence as to when the poisoning happened? I wish people would stop pretending that they know anything at all about dioxin poisoning and what's "absurd" or not. This deliberate poisoning plot makes no bloody sense- why would someone choose dioxin, of which there has never been a fatality? To generate sympathy for this guy and let him claim his evil Soviet-throwback enemies (continue demonization of opposition as required) tried to knock him off? And then have us believe it was *KGB* elements, who could've killed him easily by just sending him a poisoned letter?

Never undersetimate human incompetence. They simply may have underestimated the quality of European doctors.

Honestly, I don't think it was Putin. It was probably Kuchma using his own ex-KGB people.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[HemlockGrey]

Why Kuchma? Isn't Yuschenko his annointed heir?

[Vympel]

You're not serious, are you? Why would there be a sudden and dramatic onset of massive health problems and disfiguring skin conditions associated with this long-term low-level poisoning theory of yours? Do you think smokers generally have great health for 50 years and then suddenly over a period of a few months go straight to hell?

Yeah, it was a stupid idea. Assuming, of course, that he actually was healthy prior to the onset of his skin actually looking like shit, which is the only clue anyone would reasonably had.

Regardless, according to this link, toxicologists have very little idea what a single large dose of dioxin poisoning would do the body. Leaving aside the "now we do know" quote at the end (based on an assumption that he received it all in one big dose), that is.

I don't know anything at all about dioxin, and those of us repeatedly saying "definitively poisoned" when none of the articles say that (save for doctors going on about how unusual it is and speculating about it being intentional) don't know much about dioxin and its effects either. Which is what annoys me about this entire affair (that, and the whole no-evidence "it must've been the Russians" cliche). I have trouble believing someone trying to poison this man would've used such a contaminant, especially if it was actually some kind of government security service as is claimed by Yushchenko himself.

[Vympel]

Why Kuchma? Isn't Yuschenko his annointed heir?

No, that's Yanukovich. It's easy to get their names confused. Yushchenko is the pro-"West" guy.

[The Kernel]

Yeah, it was a stupid idea. Assuming, of course, that he actually was healthy prior to the onset of his skin actually looking like shit, which is the only clue anyone would reasonably had.

Oh come on, aside from the affects on the skin, there are numerous other complications associated with dioxin poisoning. You expect none of the doctors that would have treated him to come forward at this point were that the case? Now who is being the conspiracy theorist?

I don't know anything at all about dioxin, and those of us repeatedly saying "definitively poisoned" when none of the articles say that (save for doctors going on about how unusual it is and speculating about it being intentional) don't know much about dioxin and its effects either. Which is what annoys me about this entire affair (that, and the whole no-evidence "it must've been the Russians" cliche).

I can't say definitively that the sun will rise in the morning. What I can say is that there is enough evidence here to make intentional poisoning a virtual certainty and that is more than good enough for me. Further speculation as to the culprit is just that, but it isn't hard to see who might have had a motive in this situation.

At the very least there is enough evidence to completely discredit his political enemies. After all, considering the condition this man is in and the likelyhood of intentional poisoning, don't you see it as strange that his opponents are merely deriding him rather then offering their condolences? Why are they also so quick to dismiss the posibility that it might have been deliberate dioxin poisoning if they weren't involved?

I have trouble believing someone trying to poison this man would've used such a contaminant, especially if it was actually some kind of government security service as is claimed by Yushchenko himself.

Why not? It's the perfect thing to use; it's obviously difficult to prove and it has the charming side effect of causing a massive skin disfigurement. Do you think Bush could have won the election if he'd looked like that? The problem is, they overestimated the ability of their own propeganda machine (no doubt due to the involvement of western journalists).