Charity, Libertarianism, and Socialism

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Boyish-Tigerlilly
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Charity, Libertarianism, and Socialism

Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

I am misunderstanding something, but the Libertarians want to get rid of many Federal programs and replace them with private organizations? Why, and is this wise? Say federal housing programs and such?

this article says:

Not in America it didn't, becuse there were plenty of exits from poverty available and every church in the country (which at the time was more or less insanely religous) operated outreach type programs.

It seems your definition of "sucked" is "you could not just feed off the public teat for your entire life". If that is the case, you are entirely correct. BUT, at the same time, you actually had a chance to do something with your life.


Basically he's saying that the Libertarianism of the 18th-19th centuries was good and that people were happy and that the poverty wasn't bad, since they had all kinds of exits to escape poverty. I don't see how this is possible, since situations really didn't change untill around the second industrial revolution with more government involvement.

Department of housing and urban development issues a quarterly report re:housing placement and availability. Labor department keeps data on government job placement programs. For private programs you have to "go to the source".

The problem with your plan is the waste inherent to any government program. With 80% of total revenue going to cover administrative costs being considered acceptable, and 50% being considered fairly high for a government program, only a relatively small fraction of the total money "donated" through taxation actually provides any benifit to the poor. Local privet charities, though (which I differetiate from large national charities because most f the large national charities have number no better, and often worse, than their government counterparts), have a flowthrough of nearly 80%, and in many cases 100%, since they often rely on volunteer labor and donated facilities.
Charites and churches provide more jobs, money, and homes than does socialism? How is this? Why don't we rely on charities then?

1. IT seems to me as if this is misleading. It doesn't say how many are helped or if one helps more or the other helps more. All it seems to say is that private is more efficient, but this doesn't say anything about quanity of people helped,e ven if a small sum goes to the poor.

2. He also didn't actually provide evidence for the private: you have to go to the "source." Local charities, not national.

So basically, we are to rely on local charities for federal projects?


If the taxation in question actually resulted in the majority of those funds ending up assisting the poor, there wouldn't be a problem. Again, you fail to address the inefficiency inherent to government programs. That seems to be the achilles heel of you entire thought process. It is why socialist societies inevitably fail. We spenmd huge amounts of money for relatively small gains, at the same time stifiling industry and depriving them of low cost labor, which decreases opportunities to exit from poverty.

As long as you are runnign a job surplus and your economy is growing, poverty can be written off as a temporary.

At the end of the day, we have tried both ways. Mine worked. Yours didn't. Not only did yours not work, it has led to the breeding of a sub class of people.....professional welfare recipients. Today, a child raised on welfare is almost certain to end up a long time welfare recipient themselves. And why not? That is how they were raised, how they learned the system works. You sit at home all day and once a week get your welfare check and get money put into your vision card account.
I don't even know how to respond to this. Libertarianism worked, but no socialism works? Private is the way to go: efficiency? How can priviate charity help the masses who are in need of help.
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Boyish-Tigerlilly
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

from what I see here ( don fully understand it)

the US welfare and aid budget is in the hundreds of billions of dollars, and even of 30% of this goes to the poor....that's a shitload of money. HOw can small private charities account for this?

I went to a . gov website for the budget for 2005, and it's like

welfare 512 billion
medicar 277 billion
medicaide 194 billion

I can't see charities doing that much.
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Re: Charity, Libertarianism, and Socialism

Post by Stormbringer »

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:I am misunderstanding something, but the Libertarians want to get rid of many Federal programs and replace them with private organizations? Why, and is this wise? Say federal housing programs and such?
Yes, hard core libertarians pretty much want to slash nearly all governmental functions and turn them over to private or other non-governmental agencies. It's their belief, as often as not irrationally, that private organizations are better suited to such a role.

It's part of their overall belief that government ought to keep their hands off. This translates to a belief, against all fact, that government shouldn't do anything.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

I don't get how they support their charity beats all philosophy he's espousing. How reliable is charity? I doubt they can get nearly as high a budget.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

The reasons that Libertarians want to cut social spending is partly because they mistrust big government. When private enterprises are run inefficiently, they go bankrupt, and the workers find new employ. When government enterprises are run inefficiently, they are subsidised by tax money and survive, creating a burden on the economy.

There is an important distinction Libertarians make: they support government control of public goods but not private goods. Public goods include such things as defence, police, the courts (though not lawyers), legislation and such things in general that cannot be withheld from a consumer that refuses to pay. Private goods include real estate, consumer goods and such things that can be withheld from a consumer that refuses to pay.

A classic example of a public good is the boy and the dam. The dam has sprung a leak and the boy holds his finger there to prevent a catastrophy. He relies on donations from grateful citizens. However, if there is no compulsion for the citizens to pay he will likely receive little: a citizen acting out of self interest will reason that his contribution will be a little part of the whole, and so will not be a significant factor on whatever happens, wether the boy chooses to remain or not (thus becoming a freeloader). Therefore, the free market is not effective in distributing such goods.

However, the free market is very efficient at distributing private goods, moreso than a centralized economy (alas, I didn't take my economics books to my new appartment, so I can't provide the proof). However as critics of Libertarianism will tell you, efficiency means the absence of waste and deadweight losses, it does NOT include equity. The absence of a unique and mathematically derived yardstick to measure the relative import of equity versus efficiency is the main reason that the equity versus efficiency debate is primarily political not economic.
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Post by Iceberg »

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:I don't get how they support their charity beats all philosophy he's espousing. How reliable is charity? I doubt they can get nearly as high a budget.
Charity is only as reliable as its donors, and frankly, Americans are selfish fucks. It would take over a power of ten increase in charitable giving to make up the difference, and I kind of doubt that would happen in any realistic world.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Iceberg wrote:
Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:I don't get how they support their charity beats all philosophy he's espousing. How reliable is charity? I doubt they can get nearly as high a budget.
Charity is only as reliable as its donors, and frankly, Americans are selfish fucks. It would take over a power of ten increase in charitable giving to make up the difference, and I kind of doubt that would happen in any realistic world.
The basic philosophy of Libertarianism is not charity but economic efficiency; i.e. the absence of taxes. Voluntary payments are just dandy, since they incur no deadweight loss.
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Re: Charity, Libertarianism, and Socialism

Post by Lord Zentei »

Stormbringer wrote:
Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:I am misunderstanding something, but the Libertarians want to get rid of many Federal programs and replace them with private organizations? Why, and is this wise? Say federal housing programs and such?
Yes, hard core libertarians pretty much want to slash nearly all governmental functions and turn them over to private or other non-governmental agencies. It's their belief, as often as not irrationally, that private organizations are better suited to such a role.

It's part of their overall belief that government ought to keep their hands off. This translates to a belief, against all fact, that government shouldn't do anything.
The beleifs of Libertarians is that the government shouldn't do anything involving the free market. This beleif is based on the basic premise that the efficiency of the economy is prioroty numero uno. Based on this premise, their beleifs are sound, at least economically speaking (though morally speaking is another question and depends on what you think the purpose of government is).
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

I think the attitudes espoused in the opening post once again fit my ideal libertarian spokesperson, Mr E. Scrooge.

"Are there no prisons? No Workhouses?"

The libertarian model requires social regression to the 18th and 19th centuries, where poverty and suffering were rife and children often starved to death in the streets.

Anyone who can accept such a system is welcome to go, find a shitty little island and live by it. Anyone that wants others to live in it, can take a flying leap off the nearest convenient cliff.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

Apparently according to him, society was wonderful and happy in the 18th and 19th century. No poverty.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:Apparently according to him, society was wonderful and happy in the 18th and 19th century. No poverty.
Then he's a liar or an idiot.
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