Depressing Iraq wounded article

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Post by Medic »

Elfdart wrote:The problem is that any shyster politician knows he can hide behind servicemen (and now women) and accuse his opponent of hating the boys and girls in uniform. It was an old trick when fatso Goering mentioned it sixty years ago.
In the Golden MRE that is patriotic correctness "supporting our troops" is the main course. To complement this is the fact that support of the war is nigh-synonomous with support of the troops. Oppose the war and by extension troops and the dreaded moniker of "un-American" is your dessert. It's worth mentioning that MRE's give you wrotten gas and fuck your shitting up. All of it smells so much like the...

...BULLSHIT that it is. And when all else fails, the final defense is "well we're stuck there; we can't just pull out. The country would fall apart" WHAT A GREAT JUSTIFICATION!

Everyone wants peace in their time or at least a good war. Ask a veteran, though. War should never be fought for it's own sake. If I could lay a finger on the way this war resembles Vietnam most, it is this.
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Post by weemadando »

I pathologically HATE people who treat veterans like shit. So you protested against the war in Vietnam, thats fine, you have a right to do that, but when you then are rude, or even physically violent towards a vet (I've seen people spit on disabled vetetrans) then you have crossed the line into being the most a-moral pig-headed cock-sucking son-of-a-whore that has crossed my path.

Look at me for example, I vehemently opposed the war in Iraq, but I make decent size donations (considering my income) to the RSL and Legacy here (two organisations for returned servicemen) and help anyway I can if I encounter a veteran or even a current servicemen who requires it.

That people marginalise others on the merits of ideology - welcome to exactly what you're fighting AGAINST YOU STUPID WANKERS.

And on a closing note - the Bush gov't is the most despicable of all. Sending off troops willy-nilly and them destroying their support network when they do FINALLY get to return.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

it's difficult for me to believe that the majority of Americans would dismiss our troop's involvement as they did in Vietnam.
Bullshit!
taking all the most dismal things that could be imagined after previous wars (especially Vietnam)
Bullshit!
americans were not only apathetic towards Vietnam vets but also downright antogonistic.
Bullshit!

Folks, let's stop spreading the myth that Americans somehow spat upon, disdained, or abused Vietnam veterans. It's not true, it's total bullshit, it's a tale that's been spun out of whole cloth precisely to manipulate public opinion for military actions based on the concept that opposing a war is opposing the troops who fight it in.
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Post by Elfdart »

Not only that, but as Navy vet Jerry Lembcke points out in The Spitting Image, the whole spat-upon veteran myth was plagiarized from the old Nazi Dolchstoss myth.
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Post by PainRack »

May be off-topic here, but I read articles that claimed that most of the most vitriotic, condemnations against Vietnam war veterans were not actually done by the protesters, but by veteran associations or other right wing organisations, which blamed them for losing the war or disgracing America.............

I wonder how accurate that article is.........
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Post by PainRack »

Oops, should had read Hemlock and Elfdart posts...
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Post by Darth Wong »

Tell a lie enough times and it becomes the truth. The right-wing conservative movement in America has proven itself a brilliant manipulator of the sheep. It's not just militarism; look at how they've deflected lower-class anger at the wealthy class into anger at "liberals", who are now incorrectly perceived by the lower class as the ones who are taking all of the money out of society even though the wealthy have an ever-increasing share of that wealth as demonstrated by every conceivable empirical measure.
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Post by jegs2 »

Coyote wrote:And that's where the difference lies-- I can very easily see and comprehend why so many people are against the war and question what we're doing.
That briefs well, but many of my recruiters are receiving much in the way of grief from those who oppose the war, yelling at them while they're conducing appointments with prospects and generally hurling verbal abuse at my NCO's simply because they wear the uniform -- and that's in the Midwest. It's much worse elsewhere. I and my first sergeant were called "pompous assholes" on the way into a mall (we had said nothing to the young man either before or after he made that indictment in our direction to his giggling girlfriend), my first sergeant looking back at the kid with a mixture of rage and disbelief.
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Post by Coyote »

PainRack wrote:May be off-topic here, but I read articles that claimed that most of the most vitriotic, condemnations against Vietnam war veterans were not actually done by the protesters, but by veteran associations or other right wing organisations, which blamed them for losing the war or disgracing America.............

I wonder how accurate that article is.........

Well, I know a guy in my unit that is a Vietnam vet who said that exact thing happened to him. The WW2 guys treated him like a pariah.


As to Elfie and Hemlockgrey, I'd say that while the stories of Nam vets being treated like shit by civilians may be blown out of proportion, to say that it did not happen at all is to go out on a hell of a limb. Can you be sure that is the case? Is it likely that a veteran that is spit on or called a 'baby killer' is going to go report it, especially if he thinks that society as a whole reviles him?

There's a lot of homeless vets out there that were active participants in a hell of a big 'Capricorn One' scheme if it was all to perpetuate a myth. That it may have bene blown out of proportion I'm not arguing, but to say that the whole thing is fabricated sounds too wide-sweeping-- almost like a bit of counter-myth spreading in fact.
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Post by Broomstick »

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:I'm sorry but that article was a little skewed there. They're saying wounded Iraq veterans would receive absolutely no sympathy, understanding or respect? Hello! I see vehicles on the freeway all the time with "Support our Troops" stickers and Bush has the whole nation riled up in "supporting our troops".
I might be a little more reassured if the bumper stickers said "Support Our Wounded Veterans" or even and over-the-top "I Kissed a Marine Who Had His Face Shot Off in Iraq"

In past wars we didn't have such a high proportion of wounded among casualties - in Iraq, 90% of the casualties survive, which is utterly unprecedented in warfare and a miracle of modern medicine. While some of those wounds are minor, all too many are absolutely devastating. These are horrific injuries that even trauma surgeons can have a hard time coping with on an emotional level. I've seen some of the pictures coming back from the front lines and... well, I don't think I have the words to do them justice. It's one thing to talk about a young, 20 year man's legs reduced to ground meat and bone chips, half eviserated and the surgeons needing to sew a plastic sheet to his abdomen to hold his remaining guts in because there's not enough skin left to close the gaping hole, and oh, yes, as an aside, he's lost three fingers on one hand and suffered nerve damage in that arm and lost an eye and most of his teeth but those are minor compared to the hash his lower body has been converted into.... another thing entirely to see it documented in a photo spread. Personally, I'm quite happy I don't have to deal with it in person with the accompanying sounds (the man was concious when brought into the field hospital) and smells (blood, intestinal contents, chemicals from the "improvised explosive device", fuel and charred plastics from the humvee he had been riding in, charred clothing and burned meat....)

In any other war this man would have died. Now he has survived. He's in a military hospital in the US right now. Him and others like him. He could live 60 or more years in his shattered body. What kind of life will he have? Granted, there was that senator from Georgia (I'm pretty sure it was Georgia" who was a triple amputee and had a loving wife and family and did quite well -- who lost the last election after being branded "unpatriotic" by the right-wing neocons who sat out the very war this gentleman gave two legs and an arm for. But for every success story such as his you have hundreds who drink themselves into an early grave in the slums of the US, or kill themselves more directly.

These men are far less likely to marry. Many will be unable to work. Particuarly in the case of severe facial wounds, they will be isolated from society - either rejected by others or self-rejected and self-secluding. There are a lot of cases of brain injuries coming back from Iraq, and in some ways brain injuries can be more devastating than the loss of a limb because they can screw up a person's ability to adapt, which is a vital part of rehab.

And, as bad as the maimed have it in the US, the maimed of Iraq have it worse - fewer medical resources, fewer chances of overcoming the odds. For every American maimed in this war, there are multiple Iraqi civilians facing the same sorts of injuries with fewer resources.

It makes me want to vomit.
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Post by Broomstick »

HemlockGrey wrote:Folks, let's stop spreading the myth that Americans somehow spat upon, disdained, or abused Vietnam veterans. It's not true, it's total bullshit, it's a tale that's been spun out of whole cloth precisely to manipulate public opinion for military actions based on the concept that opposing a war is opposing the troops who fight it in.
Excuse me.

I am old enough to remember the Viet Nam war.

The abuse of Viet Nam vets is NOT bullshit or lie - it really happened.

That doesn't mean lynch mobs were waiting for the boys when they walked off the airplanes and touched US soil, it wasn't a universal sentiment, but the abuse was real. I have memories of people throwing stuff, and literally spitting on vets. Yes, people really did scream "babykiller" and ask returning vets how many people they killed and how many were kids. Didn't happen constantly, didn't happen to everyone, but it did happen. Kindly do not tell me that something I personally witnessed did not happen. THAT is bullshit!
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Can you be sure that is the case? Is it likely that a veteran that is spit on or called a 'baby killer' is going to go report it, especially if he thinks that society as a whole reviles him?

There's a lot of homeless vets out there that were active participants in a hell of a big 'Capricorn One' scheme if it was all to perpetuate a myth. That it may have bene blown out of proportion I'm not arguing, but to say that the whole thing is fabricated sounds too wide-sweeping-- almost like a bit of counter-myth spreading in fact.


Oh, there may have been a handful of incidents, but the vast majority are either fabrications, ludicrous exaggerations, or examples of faulty memories. For example, there are Vietnam vets tell about how they were spat when they got off the plane from Vietnam...despite the fact that returning vets went to military bases on the return flight, not civilian airports.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Granted, there was that senator from Georgia (I'm pretty sure it was Georgia" who was a triple amputee and had a loving wife and family and did quite well -- who lost the last election after being branded "unpatriotic" by the right-wing neocons who sat out the very war this gentleman gave two legs and an arm for.
That would be Max Cleland.
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Post by Medic »

Darth Wong wrote:Tell a lie enough times and it becomes the truth. The right-wing conservative movement in America has proven itself a brilliant manipulator of the sheep. etc
I'm evidence, though also a success story I suppose. :finger: The right wing

Americans potential antipathy towards the veterans of the current war aside, the fact remains that the US military and the right wing did learn a lesson from Vietnam that they employ quite judiciously today: manipulating public opinion. Fred Reed hit this one on the nail.

That the press ever reports on winning "hearts and minds" of the Afghani's / Iraqi's (Iranians?) is bitterly ironic. Any report trying to galvanize the public or garner support for the war is an attempt at winning the "hearts and minds" that really matter.
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Post by Elfdart »

Coyote wrote:
PainRack wrote:May be off-topic here, but I read articles that claimed that most of the most vitriotic, condemnations against Vietnam war veterans were not actually done by the protesters, but by veteran associations or other right wing organisations, which blamed them for losing the war or disgracing America.............

I wonder how accurate that article is.........

Well, I know a guy in my unit that is a Vietnam vet who said that exact thing happened to him. The WW2 guys treated him like a pariah.


As to Elfie and Hemlockgrey, I'd say that while the stories of Nam vets being treated like shit by civilians may be blown out of proportion, to say that it did not happen at all is to go out on a hell of a limb. Can you be sure that is the case? Is it likely that a veteran that is spit on or called a 'baby killer' is going to go report it, especially if he thinks that society as a whole reviles him?

There's a lot of homeless vets out there that were active participants in a hell of a big 'Capricorn One' scheme if it was all to perpetuate a myth. That it may have bene blown out of proportion I'm not arguing, but to say that the whole thing is fabricated sounds too wide-sweeping-- almost like a bit of counter-myth spreading in fact.
There is not a single known case of veterans being spat upon or physically attacked by protestors from that time period. Not one police report, military report, newspaper or TV article, nothing. The stories crop up a few years later. Sure, it's possible that veterans were attacked and didn't report it -but would all of them have said nothing? Nobody complained to the police, many of whom are themselves ex-military? Nobody called the local paper or wrote his Congressman or made an issue of it in any way? Nobody sent one of these hippies to the hospital for spitting on him? Please.

You should also keep in mind that the authorities had a vested interest in coming up with ANY kind of chickenshit trumped up charge in order to arrest or harass anti-war types. Yet while demonstrators and others were arrested for everything from double parking to saying "fuck" in a public place, not one was busted for attacking vets in any way -including spitting.

It's an urban myth, but unlike the one about Dr Pepper and Pop Rocks, this one endorses a political smear that was first invented by the Nazis: Our brave boys in uniform would have won were it not for commie-weirdo-Jew-fags who hate this country, root for the other side and spit on our troops.

It's not even original bullshit.
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Post by Elfdart »

jegs2 wrote:
Coyote wrote:And that's where the difference lies-- I can very easily see and comprehend why so many people are against the war and question what we're doing.
That briefs well, but many of my recruiters are receiving much in the way of grief from those who oppose the war, yelling at them while they're conducing appointments with prospects and generally hurling verbal abuse at my NCO's simply because they wear the uniform -- and that's in the Midwest. It's much worse elsewhere. I and my first sergeant were called "pompous assholes" on the way into a mall (we had said nothing to the young man either before or after he made that indictment in our direction to his giggling girlfriend), my first sergeant looking back at the kid with a mixture of rage and disbelief.
Part of that comes from the fact that Congress threatened to cut off money to any public school that didn't assist military recruiters by giving names, phone numbers and other info. Some school districts have bent over backwards and have given recruiters every kind of personal info about students -without the consent of the kid or his/ her parents.

Some of the recruiters have been pretty damned pushy, too: Calling several times a day, even after being told "NO!" by kids and parents. One of my co-workers told me he was going to get his phone number changed because recruiters were after his son so much. A lot of teenagers (and parents) resent the living shit out of this.
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