Robin Cook (British MP) has died.

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Tatterdemalion
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Post by Tatterdemalion »

The Guid wrote:
I guess that justifies being a schoolyard bully, invading any country that is weaker than you to steal their resources etc. does it? You're either a moron or have such opposite ideals to me to make all discussion useless.
Well assuming he follows the realist school (I'd say 'ideology' but that's another can of worms) of international relations to the letter as he implied then yes, he probably believes it does. Basically (to the point of oversimplification) realism boils down to national self-interest being paramount.

I could go on at great length about WHY realists believe this is so, and the practically Machiavellian reasoning realists use to try and make this stance morally justifiable, (well some realists anyway, neorealists ignore the moral dimension all together) but if you're curious I'm sure googling for it or using wikipedia would net you a better explanation than one a first year like me could provide.
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Stofsk
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Post by Stofsk »

Tatterdemalion wrote:Well assuming he follows the realist school (I'd say 'ideology' but that's another can of worms) of international relations to the letter as he implied then yes, he probably believes it does. Basically (to the point of oversimplification) realism boils down to national self-interest being paramount.
Not quite. They believe the State is the most important actor in international relations, and that ALL states act out of self-interest. They also consider that every state is locked into a power struggle to increase their national power, which basically boils down to military strength (realists consider military to be, practically, the most important factor in determining a nation's power relative to other's). Also, they consider that the international system is inherently anarchic because there is nothing like a 'world's policeman'; this is why 'international law' isn't a workable concept to realists, because it cannot be enforced.
I could go on at great length about WHY realists believe this is so, and the practically Machiavellian reasoning realists use to try and make this stance morally justifiable, (well some realists anyway, neorealists ignore the moral dimension all together) but if you're curious I'm sure googling for it or using wikipedia would net you a better explanation than one a first year like me could provide.
Realists consider the acquisition of power to be an activity all states take part in, no exceptions. This is not universal - I think there is one country in the world that doesn't have a military, but I don't know what it is - but another concept realism espouses is the notion of a balance of power - in this case, stability is achieved when you have two nations that are in opposition to each other but aren't fighting one another. Kind of like the USA and USSR.

To realists, the balance of power is more important than having a unipolar world, because now instability is on the rise. For that reason, I think some realists would be quite opposed to entering war with Iraq or any other small, irrelevant power, because it would increase the instability in a certain region - the middle east - while also decreasing military capability. To realists, unipolarity doesn't last. In the 19th Century, it was the British Empire as the top dog, in the 20th Century the USA took over. To realists, it doesn't matter who's on top today, because they won't be there forever.
The Guid wrote:I guess that justifies being a schoolyard bully, invading any country that is weaker than you to steal their resources etc. does it? You're either a moron or have such opposite ideals to me to make all discussion useless.
Interestingly, some liberals welcome 'democratising' the middle-east, as it fulfills in their minds the notion of 'the democratic peace' - namely, that no democratic country in recent years has gone to war against each other, which in the long run means if more nations are liberal democracies, world peace could be possible. I think liberals don't like the methods being employed in Iraq, though. Nor the motives given. "Oh nos! Iraq has WMDS!!!!11one"
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Johnny Ipcress
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Post by Johnny Ipcress »

Google is your freind. Use it. But as your sence of history is weak, I shall give you a clue. Duff Cooper was First Lord of the Admiralty at the time of Munich in 1938.
Look, you made the claim. I'm not going to do your work for you.
Its his private life, and as such its none of your affair unles it affects his job performance. I would dearly like to see you provide evidence to support the aboive, failing that you could grow up.
Okay. To put it in your terms, I'm saying that a person's morality is omnipresent in his life. If he deceives in one place, who's to say he won't in another?
It bewilders me that you think a politician can do anything in their private life and remain credible. You're the one who needs to grow up! You're living in some sort of magical fantasy land.
Johnny Ipcress
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Post by Johnny Ipcress »

I guess that justifies being a schoolyard bully, invading any country that is weaker than you to steal their resources etc. does it? You're either a moron or have such opposite ideals to me to make all discussion useless.
Frankly, it seems to me that they're the same thing in your eyes.
Johnny Ipcress
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Post by Johnny Ipcress »

Stofsk wrote:Not quite. They believe the State is the most important actor in international relations, and that ALL states act out of self-interest. They also consider that every state is locked into a power struggle to increase their national power, which basically boils down to military strength (realists consider military to be, practically, the most important factor in determining a nation's power relative to other's). Also, they consider that the international system is inherently anarchic because there is nothing like a 'world's policeman'; this is why 'international law' isn't a workable concept to realists, because it cannot be enforced.

Realists consider the acquisition of power to be an activity all states take part in, no exceptions. This is not universal - I think there is one country in the world that doesn't have a military, but I don't know what it is - but another concept realism espouses is the notion of a balance of power - in this case, stability is achieved when you have two nations that are in opposition to each other but aren't fighting one another. Kind of like the USA and USSR.

To realists, the balance of power is more important than having a unipolar world, because now instability is on the rise. For that reason, I think some realists would be quite opposed to entering war with Iraq or any other small, irrelevant power, because it would increase the instability in a certain region - the middle east - while also decreasing military capability. To realists, unipolarity doesn't last. In the 19th Century, it was the British Empire as the top dog, in the 20th Century the USA took over. To realists, it doesn't matter who's on top today, because they won't be there forever.
This is certainly the "classical realist" view of international politics. However, there are more flavours of realism than there are ice cream. They're all basically the same though. State is the primary actor. States are self-interested. The international system is anarchic.
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Stuart Mackey
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Johnny Ipcress wrote:
Google is your freind. Use it. But as your sence of history is weak, I shall give you a clue. Duff Cooper was First Lord of the Admiralty at the time of Munich in 1938.
Look, you made the claim. I'm not going to do your work for you.
What claim? I presented an example, Duff Cooper, its not my fault you dont know who he was.
Its his private life, and as such its none of your affair unles it affects his job performance. I would dearly like to see you provide evidence to support the aboive, failing that you could grow up.
Okay. To put it in your terms, I'm saying that a person's morality is omnipresent in his life. If he deceives in one place, who's to say he won't in another?[/quote]

And who is to say they will, you a fucking Jedi master now? see the future you do?
moreover you are trying to convict a person for an act which is not illegal. Whats more you still have not demonstrated if someones legal private life is or is not affecting their job and unless you can, you dont have a point.
It bewilders me that you think a politician can do anything in their private life and remain credible. You're the one who needs to grow up! You're living in some sort of magical fantasy land.
Dont be so fucking stupid. Your line of thinking is about as adult as the US noncence of Janet Jacksons tit flash. My nation has its politiians having affairs and no one give a damn, because it does not affect their job .
Just because you have some moral objections to a persons legal activities does not mean that person should be sacked.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

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Johnny Ipcress
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Post by Johnny Ipcress »

What claim? I presented an example, Duff Cooper, its not my fault you dont know who he was.
Then the example is meaningless.
And who is to say they will, you a fucking Jedi master now? see the future you do?


Are you mental? If someone robbed a bank, would you lend them money? If he killed a man, would you let him date your sister? Of course, with many moral propositions, they don't follow. However, it's just common sense that leads you to believe that a politician that betrays his wife is not entirely trustworthy. Understand?
moreover you are trying to convict a person for an act which is not illegal. Whats more you still have not demonstrated if someones legal private life is or is not affecting their job and unless you can, you dont have a point.
I'm trying to convict them of an act which is not illegal? What are you on about? Is the state your ethical arbiter?
What I am trying to show you is that if a person's ethics are inconsistent (hypocritical) in one aspect of their life, and their value system pervades their entire life, then it is reasonable to assume that they're not trustworthy as politicians. Thus they are not "truly ethical".
Dont be so fucking stupid. Your line of thinking is about as adult as the US noncence of Janet Jacksons tit flash.


What does this mean?
My nation has its politiians having affairs and no one give a damn, because it does not affect their job .
Great. Also, I think you mean your nation *permits* its politicians to be unfaithful.
Just because you have some moral objections to a persons legal activities does not mean that person should be sacked.
I never said they should. What I am saying is that, as in the case of Robin Cook, they are not "truly ethical" people. And indeed it would be naive to think that politicians ever are.
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