What is military "honour"?
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The Yosemite Bear
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And as I recall the last time someone talked about Battle Honour in modern warfare, it's been the exclusive privaledge of those who are in the position of the modern equivalent of the knights on horseback. Fighter pilots.
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
Very good point, Bear. In fact, look at fighter pilots of the WW1. They were nicknamed "knights of the sky" for good reason; if the stories are to believed, almost to the point of parody.The Yosemite Bear wrote:And as I recall the last time someone talked about Battle Honour in modern warfare, it's been the exclusive privaledge of those who are in the position of the modern equivalent of the knights on horseback. Fighter pilots.
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"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
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The Yosemite Bear
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Coyote
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I am purposefully not reading the other responses, so as not to be influenced one way or another, but rather going for me "gut instinct" on what soldierly honor should be.
Bear in mind this is MY interpretation, one which I carry with me in my own mind, and what I try to adhere to when on a battlefield:
(Bear in mind this is in no particular order)
1: Don't kill unarmed/innocent people. If they are fighters somehow, despite being unarmed, bind them and take them prisoner.
2: Stick up for your guys and get for them what you can without causing harm to others.
3: Don't do anything that brings shame to yourself, your soldiers, your country or people. Always ask "what will this sound like in a televised court?"
4: Do the best you can for the people you are trying to protect-- either your own society's people or someone outside that society.
5: Bear in mind what will be said about you later. What will be remembered about you years down the line? What will the children say who grew up seeing what you did?
6: Be ready to turn on your higher up if they ask you to do something that we once told ourselves only the "enemy" would do. In the long run, the court mentioned in #3 will understand who was wrong.
7: Be able to face yourself in a mirror later.
Okay, probably overly black & white & maybe no little sentimental, but if I can at least try to tailor my daily life to conform as much as realistically possible to these ideas, then all the better. My success in this is 100% anecdotal, as it kept me focused when actually in Iraq and so far I have not had any cause for doubt or second thoughts since coming back.
Bear in mind this is MY interpretation, one which I carry with me in my own mind, and what I try to adhere to when on a battlefield:
(Bear in mind this is in no particular order)
1: Don't kill unarmed/innocent people. If they are fighters somehow, despite being unarmed, bind them and take them prisoner.
2: Stick up for your guys and get for them what you can without causing harm to others.
3: Don't do anything that brings shame to yourself, your soldiers, your country or people. Always ask "what will this sound like in a televised court?"
4: Do the best you can for the people you are trying to protect-- either your own society's people or someone outside that society.
5: Bear in mind what will be said about you later. What will be remembered about you years down the line? What will the children say who grew up seeing what you did?
6: Be ready to turn on your higher up if they ask you to do something that we once told ourselves only the "enemy" would do. In the long run, the court mentioned in #3 will understand who was wrong.
7: Be able to face yourself in a mirror later.
Okay, probably overly black & white & maybe no little sentimental, but if I can at least try to tailor my daily life to conform as much as realistically possible to these ideas, then all the better. My success in this is 100% anecdotal, as it kept me focused when actually in Iraq and so far I have not had any cause for doubt or second thoughts since coming back.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Coyote
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Re: What is military "honour"?
This, unfortunately, is the modern twist, and it pisses me off no end that the very idea of principles, ethics and loyalty to an idea has been so thoroughly pissed on. For what my fucking opinion is worth, anyway.Vympel wrote:Colbert mocked the concept on a recent show:-
Complete with Klingon jokes.
I don't think the word "honour" as used in current political discussion has any meaning whatsoever. It's just blather that is today used by warmongers as a euphemism for wanting to save face for the debacles they get the country in...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Coyote
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"Honor", in this case, is used as a vocabulatory band-aid.FSTargetDrone wrote:John McCain repeatedly says he wants the US military to withdraw from Iraq "with honor" or "honorably leave" the country. Or words to that effect, but always with "honor."
I think what he's really saying is that he doesn't want to see the military leave on anything other than its own terms, that he wants to avoid the ignominy of retreat, to avoid another bitter taste of the United States' withdrawal from Vietnam.....
It really does irk me, I have to admit, to realize it has boiled down to this. Groucho Marx once said, "I wouldn't belong to any club that would have me for a member". Considering my thoughts on my previous two posts, is it any wonder where I'm going with this?
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Coyote
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Hey, look everyone! It's one of those moments when Sir Nit and I stand should-to-shoulder!SirNitram wrote:Endless idealist that I am, I'd say honour is a matter of being honest and taking responsibility for your actions, and at least doing what you can to accomplish positive outcomes.
Mind you, this definition means a lot of the 'Brass' of the US Military has stained their honour quite deeply.
Time for a celebratory Guiness.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Oni Koneko Damien
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You could argue that fighting someone face to face forces you to acknowledge them as a human being...and thus, if you actually *do* have any honour in you, you would be damn certain that this is the least of all evils before giving them a killing blow (as opposed to sniping/crossbowing/bombing a lot of distant moving targets, which would presumably be a bit easier to rationalize away the sheer inhumanity of it).Phantasee wrote:Which brings me to my next point: was it honourable to fight the other man, one-on-one, hand-to-hand?
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"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee
It's just a psychological thing, though. Once it became commonplace that fighting occured at hundreds of meters rather than hand-to-hand, it suddendly became honorable to fight like that, but with some added clauses - like the "Don't shoot civilians" bit Coyote mentioned. It seems that definitions of "honorable combat" simply change with the times and technology, but always include some sort of handicap for the soldiers.Oni Koneko Damien wrote: You could argue that fighting someone face to face forces you to acknowledge them as a human being...and thus, if you actually *do* have any honour in you, you would be damn certain that this is the least of all evils before giving them a killing blow (as opposed to sniping/crossbowing/bombing a lot of distant moving targets, which would presumably be a bit easier to rationalize away the sheer inhumanity of it).
I would like to add another bit to everything other people mentioned: most soldiers are seen as honorable if they put themselves in additional danger in order to prevent unnecessary suffering, especially if they don't have to in order to win. For example, those German submariners who helped evacuated crews after torpedoing their ships exposed themselves to danger, and thus were held in high esteem by these very crews. But once they received direct orders not to do that, as it put them in danger for little gain, the opinion about them changed.
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FSTargetDrone
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If those people in power, especially, followed the list you've laid out above, even some of those things listed, I think we'd all be in a better place and probably not even in Iraq.Coyote wrote:"Honor", in this case, is used as a vocabulatory band-aid.
It really does irk me, I have to admit, to realize it has boiled down to this. Groucho Marx once said, "I wouldn't belong to any club that would have me for a member". Considering my thoughts on my previous two posts, is it any wonder where I'm going with this?
