California, Republicans, the electoral system, and Democrats

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California, Republicans, the electoral system, and Democrats

Post by Sam Or I »

NN) -- A GOP-inspired effort to tinker with the Electoral College machinery in California is raising alarm bells among Democrats who fear it could doom the party's chances of winning the White House in 2008.


A GOP-led group submitted a proposal to state Attorney General Jerry Brown that could sway the '08 presidential race.

Democrats have come to rely on California's block of 55 electoral votes -- the largest haul available in any state -- as part of their arithmetic to win the presidency with a majority in the Electoral College.

A group called Californians for Equal Representation has submitted a ballot initiative to state Attorney General Jerry Brown that would change the current statewide winner-take-all system to a formula based on congressional districts.

Republicans say the idea is aimed at attracting presidential candidates to campaign in California, which they rarely do because the statewide vote traditionally leans Democratic. Opponents call the proposal an attempt to grab Democratic votes.

Under the proposal, the winning candidate in each of the state's 53 congressional districts would get one electoral vote, with two votes going to the statewide winner.

Supporters want to put the proposal on the ballot for next June's state primary, which would put the change into effect for the 2008 election.

Do to so, supporters will have to collect about 434,000 petition signatures from registered voters by November 13, according to the secretary of state's office.

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In the 2006 election, Californians elected 34 Democrats and 19 Republicans to the House.

Had the proposed system been in effect in 2004, President Bush would have captured 22 of California's electoral votes. The extra electoral votes would have eliminated Bush's need to carry the pivotal state of Ohio to win re-election.

"This would all but guarantee that the Republican nominee would get 20 extra Electoral College votes, which could certainly impact the outcome of the election," said Allan Hoffenblum, a Republican strategist.

And that is exactly what has Democrats crying foul.

"The Republicans are doing this in California because they want a chunk of our vote," said Darry Sragow, a Democratic strategist.

The ballot initiative was submitted by Thomas Hiltachk, a Sacramento election lawyer who is also general counsel for Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

The purpose of the change is to make California more relevant in presidential elections by forcing candidates to campaign in the state, according to the initiative.

"Because this is a reliable Democratic state, none of the presidential candidates -- Republican or Democrat -- ever shows up in California," Hoffenblum said.

On the other side of the divide, Democrats argue that California shouldn't make such a change when the vast majority of other states still operate under a winner-take-all system.

"This is very fair if it's universal around the country," Sragow said. "It is patently absurd it if only takes place in certain states."

Under the Constitution, each state gets a number of electoral votes equal to its representation in Congress, including both representatives and senators. Currently, 48 states award all of their electoral votes to the candidate who wins the largest number of votes.

Two states -- Nebraska and Maine -- have adopted the system that is being proposed for California, assigning their electoral votes based on who wins individual congressional districts, with the statewide winner getting the two votes derived from senators. But this has not generated controversy because both states have just a handful of votes, and the results have never resulted in splitting them between candidates.

Ironically, while Democrats are up in arms in California over the idea of changing the Electoral College rules, their compatriots in Republican-leaning North Carolina have floated the idea of adopting the Nebraska-Maine system for their state.

However, national Democratic leaders have tried to discourage that effort, because of concerns it would be difficult to support such a change in North Carolina, where it would help the party, while opposing it in California.

The change also would help Democrats much less in North Carolina than it would hurt in California. In 2004, the Democratic presidential nominee, Sen. John Kerry, would have garnered three more votes in North Carolina, while losing 22 in California.

The disputed 2000 election, in which Bush won the electoral vote while losing the popular vote, has generated a flurry of proposals to abolish or alter the Electoral College, both at the federal and state level.

In 2006, Colorado voters rejected a constitutional amendment that would have divided up the electoral vote pie in proportion to each candidates' share of the popular vote.

A group called National Popular Vote also is lobbying state legislatures to adopt a system where all of a state's electoral votes would be pledged to the winner of the national popular vote -- an idea which, if adopted by states holding a majority of electoral votes, would ensure that the popular vote winner always became president.

While National Popular Vote says its plan has been introduced in 47 states, Maryland is the only one so far to pass it. And the change won't go into effect in Maryland until it gains approval in enough states to ensure that the popular vote winner would take the White House. E-mail to a friend
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/09/ ... index.html

On the flip side:
SACRAMENTO — Democrats on Tuesday proposed putting on a 2008 ballot an initiative aimed at having California join the movement to elect presidents by popular vote.

The initiative, if successful, also would head off a Republican effort to get some of California's electoral votes.

GOP consultants have proposed a separate initiative to change California's winner-take-all system of awarding its 55 electoral votes. Under this measure, electoral votes would be awarded by how congressional districts vote, which could benefit the Republican nominee in this state with more registered Democrats.

If the competing measures make it onto the ballot in June or November, California could become a battleground over the electoral college, whose electors ultimately select the president and vice president. The state has more electoral votes than any other and more than 10% of the electoral college's 538.

Democrats backing the initiative filed Tuesday think that electing presidents by national popular vote would help the their party's nominee win the White House.

"A lot of people who lived through the 2000 election. . . feel pretty strongly that we ought to have a national popular vote," said Democratic consultant Chris Lehane, among those pushing for the measure. "The electoral college is a vestige of another time period."

In 2000, Democrat Al Gore received more of the popular vote than Republican George W. Bush, but failed to garner a majority of the electoral votes. Candidates who placed second in the popular vote also were elected president in 1888, 1876 and 1824.

A team of Democrats filed two virtually identical initiatives with the California attorney general's office Tuesday, a first step to begin gathering the hundreds of thousands of signatures needed to place either measure on the June or November ballot. (One version contains a clause stating that if both the Democratic- and Republican-backed initiatives make it onto the ballot, the one with the most votes would take precedence.)

If backers gather sufficient signatures to place one of the Democratic measures on the ballot, and voters were to approve it, California would become one of roughly a dozen states to have embraced the concept of electing presidents by popular vote.

The national drive toward a popular vote would not scrap the electoral college system, but would require states to award their electoral votes to whichever candidate wins the most actual votes nationally. It would take effect only if states representing a majority of the electoral votes agree to the change.

Although California is a Democratic state, Republicans hold 19 congressional seats, suggesting that the GOP presidential nominee could win at least 19 of the state's electoral votes. A Field Poll released this week showed that the GOP-backed concept was supported by a ratio of 47% to 35%.

There is no definitive count of voter registration by party. Some states don't ask party affiliation. But based on a recent Times/Bloomberg poll, 33% of voters nationally identified themselves as Democrats, 28% said they were Republicans, and the rest said they belonged to minor parties or declined to state.

Kevin Eckery, spokesman for the GOP measure, said the Democratic-backed initiative would leave Californians with little or no voice in U.S. politics. "If you ignore the congressional districts, there would be one big overwhelming national vote," he said. "What matters in L.A. . . . won't matter. It will be just one vote thrown into the mix."
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-na ... california

I am so pissed at both parties right now.
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Post by SirNitram »

I see nothing particularly wrong with the Dems initiative; I've never liked the Electoral College.

Of course, it does make the whole reform seem worrisome if the actual result is another GOP president, probably Ghouliani or Romney The Flipflopping Mormon. Whatever value there may be in conservative politics, it doesn't lie in the deranged psychopaths currently running for office.
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Post by Gigaliel »

These efforts would be better served at an amendment for a straight popular vote than trying to drag the electoral college along with it. That way, everyone changes to the not silly system at the same time instead of this halfway nonsense where the value of your vote can be determined by geography and/or how naive your state reps are. I mean honestly, did Nebraska and Maine see an upsurge in Presidential interest? I'm pretty sure that's a no.

Of course, changing the constitution involves the rural states voting to change a system that - wait for it - was designed solely to give them benefits! That's going to be a fun debate. It's not like a several states already get more representatives than their alloted populations and two senators anyway! Wee.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Oh, let's face it, we know exactly the reason for this little song-n-dance in California: the GOP know they're fucked next year in terms of electoral math. So, as always, they're going to ram in a quick change to the rules of the game which suited them just fine until now.

Evidently, the Diebold machines aren't enough of an insurance policy for them come November 2008.
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Post by Havok »

So the Dems are mad because they don't want the Republican vote in California to count towards the Republican presidential candidate, but want them to stay counting towards the Democratic presidential candidate. Ok.

And the DEMs want a popular vote to be in effect where the republican votes in CA will stop counting towards the Democratic presidential candidate but count towards the Republicans, but since there are more democrats in the state they feel the will come out on top.

Sounds like the Dems don't think its fair to be fair.
"The Republicans are doing this in California because they want a chunk of our vote," said Darry Sragow, a Democratic strategist.
Hmm. Funny, I thought they were OUR votes.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

No, the Democrats are mad because the Republicans are now trying to change the rules of the game they were perfectly satisfied with until they saw defeat staring them in the face in just a few months. If this measure were at all an honest desire for electoral fairness it would a) have been a bipartisan proposal, b) been written so that the change in California's electoral vote allocation would not take effect until the next presidential election after this one coming up, and c) proposed to be included in a general election with multiple ballot initiatives and candidates for office so as to be presented to a high voter turnout. None of these three conditions are at all part of this scheme and in point of fact the California GOP are trying to ensure this gets on the ballot as quickly as possible as the sole measure up for decision or with only a very few initiatives up as well and no other races so as to ensure an election with low voter turnout. In other words, they're trying to sneak this one through just in time for 2008.
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Post by Gigaliel »

havokeff wrote:So the Dems are mad because they don't want the Republican vote in California to count towards the Republican presidential candidate, but want them to stay counting towards the Democratic presidential candidate. Ok.

And the DEMs want a popular vote to be in effect where the republican votes in CA will stop counting towards the Democratic presidential candidate but count towards the Republicans, but since there are more democrats in the state they feel the will come out on top.

Sounds like the Dems don't think its fair to be fair.
"The Republicans are doing this in California because they want a chunk of our vote," said Darry Sragow, a Democratic strategist.
Hmm. Funny, I thought they were OUR votes.
Um, it really isn't fair anyway you look at it.

If California changes the rest of the states don't. That means Texas, a state that always votes for Republicans despite the fact there are vocal Democratic strongholds in the cities and the Southern/Southwestern areas will have their votes nullified. Now apply this to most of the South and some of the Mountain states.

Will Republicans change this? Hell no, they're organized and play to win. Wow, thousands of voices being ignored by democracy.

Well that's pretty damn unfair, isn't? So why the hell should California let their Republicans have their say if Democrats in other states do not? Fair's fair.

Not to mention fairness is a horrible basis for decisions. What good comes of a split-electoral California? Oh goody, more Republican presidents, but this time with charisma and intelligence.

I have no problems with popular votes, just when it's applied haphazardly like this state-by-state system will do.
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Post by Havok »

Patrick Degan wrote:No, the Democrats are mad because the Republicans are now trying to change the rules of the game they were perfectly satisfied with until they saw defeat staring them in the face in just a few months. If this measure were at all an honest desire for electoral fairness it would a) have been a bipartisan proposal, b) been written so that the change in California's electoral vote allocation would not take effect until the next presidential election after this one coming up, and c) proposed to be included in a general election with multiple ballot initiatives and candidates for office so as to be presented to a high voter turnout. None of these three conditions are at all part of this scheme and in point of fact the California GOP are trying to ensure this gets on the ballot as quickly as possible as the sole measure up for decision or with only a very few initiatives up as well and no other races so as to ensure an election with low voter turnout. In other words, they're trying to sneak this one through just in time for 2008.
Gigaliel wrote:
havokeff wrote:So the Dems are mad because they don't want the Republican vote in California to count towards the Republican presidential candidate, but want them to stay counting towards the Democratic presidential candidate. Ok.

And the DEMs want a popular vote to be in effect where the republican votes in CA will stop counting towards the Democratic presidential candidate but count towards the Republicans, but since there are more democrats in the state they feel the will come out on top.

Sounds like the Dems don't think its fair to be fair.
"The Republicans are doing this in California because they want a chunk of our vote," said Darry Sragow, a Democratic strategist.
Hmm. Funny, I thought they were OUR votes.
Um, it really isn't fair anyway you look at it.

If California changes the rest of the states don't. That means Texas, a state that always votes for Republicans despite the fact there are vocal Democratic strongholds in the cities and the Southern/Southwestern areas will have their votes nullified. Now apply this to most of the South and some of the Mountain states.

Will Republicans change this? Hell no, they're organized and play to win. Wow, thousands of voices being ignored by democracy.

Well that's pretty damn unfair, isn't? So why the hell should California let their Republicans have their say if Democrats in other states do not? Fair's fair.

Not to mention fairness is a horrible basis for decisions. What good comes of a split-electoral California? Oh goody, more Republican presidents, but this time with charisma and intelligence.

I have no problems with popular votes, just when it's applied haphazardly like this state-by-state system will do.
Damn. Lots of good points. I stand corrected
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Post by Xisiqomelir »

Patrick Degan wrote:Oh, let's face it, we know exactly the reason for this little song-n-dance in California: the GOP know they're fucked next year in terms of electoral math. So, as always, they're going to ram in a quick change to the rules of the game which suited them just fine until now.
Exactly.

I wouldn't worry too much, no matter your affiliations though. I highly doubt either initiative is going to fly.
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Post by Sam Or I »

First off lets make this clear, I usually lean republican / conservative in most issues (Well actually I am a libertarian, but I lean more conservative than liberal.)

I believe in states rights. and that the smaller states do need some sort of edge. Hense all the compromises during the drafting of the constitution, and why we have a bi-lateral congress. The smaller states do need some sort of leverage or almost all the power will rest in 3 to 4 cities which will make decisions about states they know nothing about. (It would be like Paris, London and Berlin making laws that effect Lisbon, completely different culture and needs.)

Even though the republican plan gives my vote more power, it diminishes the states right as a whole. Not to mention the fact that it is a scam to win more votes for the republican party. I would be a little better with it if every state used this plan, but not by much. It leaves the state wide open for gerrymandering even more so than before.(I personally think California should be divided into 3 states.)

The democrat plan completely takes away the power of California in the Electoral vote. Again it would be better if every state was playing by this rule, but they are not. I personally do not see mob rule as a good alternative to the electoral college. It excludes the minority states to almost nothing. No one will give a rats ass about Alaska.

My personal view, I would like to see the Republic type plan where each district is counted as .5 electoral votes, then winner takes 50%+2+the electoral votes in acted in all states, not just California.

Or California divided into 3 States.

Personally, I feel my vote does not count because I know the state is going Blue. But I feel that both these porps are a load of crap and will diminish my right as a Californian voter even more so than it already is. The GOP (even if enacted among all the states), will give my vote more power, it will give the state less.

Either way, if either of these pass, they will be held up in court for years.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

I've held that if a state's electoral votes are to be allocated by any means other than winner-take-all, the most logical method would be by percentages, with the electoral votes calculated to the nearest whole number. Say, in a state with 25 electoral votes, candidate A gets 57% of the vote and candidate B gets 43%. In that instance, candidate A would receive 14 electoral votes and candidate B 11. Simple math. One of the things which really smells about this scheme is that the Republican proposal is to allocate the California electoral votes according to congressional districts carried by the candidates, which is a very strong motive for gerrymandering. Straight out of the Tom DeLay playbook, really.
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Post by Sam Or I »

Patrick Degan wrote:I've held that if a state's electoral votes are to be allocated by any means other than winner-take-all, the most logical method would be by percentages, with the electoral votes calculated to the nearest whole number. Say, in a state with 25 electoral votes, candidate A gets 57% of the vote and candidate B gets 43%. In that instance, candidate A would receive 14 electoral votes and candidate B 11. Simple math. One of the things which really smells about this scheme is that the Republican proposal is to allocate the California electoral votes according to congressional districts carried by the candidates, which is a very strong motive for gerrymandering. Straight out of the Tom DeLay playbook, really.
If if they did it precentage wise, it would be JUST California doing it, which would give republicans an unfair advantage. It is clearly a political move to change the rules.

For Gerrymandering, California is controlled by the Democrats, so Republicans would not have much of a say. But Democrats are not innocent of Gerrymandering here in California. (Seats in the state legistator rarely change due to this reason.) The last special election, Arnold tried to put a stop to it by introducing a bill. The Democrats of course did not want to loose control and made sure anything put on that ballot would be reject to "send a message to Arnold".
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I hate my state's fucked up politics so much. California republicans get no say and nobody pays any attention to them. For a state as large as california, they need to get rid of the winner-take all. I don't care when it starts, but it needs to happen.

We should've passed redistricting when we had the chance.
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Post by drachefly »

Sam Or I wrote:The democrat plan completely takes away the power of California in the Electoral vote. Again it would be better if every state was playing by this rule, but they are not.
You may not be familiar with the plan, but both of these statements are false.

First, the second part: The bill explicitly states that it does not take effect unless a deciding majority of states have the same law on the books. In other words, it's business as usual until it completely takes over.

Now, as for voting power: presently, California has approximately zero voting power. Pretty much no matter what happens, CA is going to lean democrat. Last time it didn't go blue in the presidential election was 1984, and that was such a landslide that all but 9 electoral votes were red.

So, since CA is locked in place, Presidents and presidential candidates can ignore it. They can literally ignore a state that has roughly 1/10 of the population of the country.

So, if the country went to direct popular vote on the presidency, then the citizens of CA would suddenly have the same degree of voting power as any other citizen.
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Post by drachefly »

Additionally, I'd like to point out that it is perfectly within the states' powers to assign their presidential electors as they see fit. The Florida voting fiasco in 2000 was sad, but the whole mess was voided by a declaration by the state legislature of how the state's electors should vote.

Sounds crummy, and it was, but that was actually perfectly legal.

So, in this case, we might as well apply that legal opportunity to accomplish good instead of evil.
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Post by Plekhanov »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I hate my state's fucked up politics so much. California republicans get no say and nobody pays any attention to them. For a state as large as california, they need to get rid of the winner-take all. I don't care when it starts, but it needs to happen.

We should've passed redistricting when we had the chance.
So you think it's fair for other states to be winner takes all but not California? Why should the rules for California be any different than for anywhere else?
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Post by Havok »

Plekhanov wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I hate my state's fucked up politics so much. California republicans get no say and nobody pays any attention to them. For a state as large as california, they need to get rid of the winner-take all. I don't care when it starts, but it needs to happen.

We should've passed redistricting when we had the chance.
So you think it's fair for other states to be winner takes all but not California? Why should the rules for California be any different than for anywhere else?
Fair or not doesn't matter. We have our own State Government. If that's what we decide and vote on, that's that.
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Post by Plekhanov »

havokeff wrote:
Plekhanov wrote:So you think it's fair for other states to be winner takes all but not California? Why should the rules for California be any different than for anywhere else?
Fair or not doesn't matter. We have our own State Government. If that's what we decide and vote on, that's that.
Seeing as how 'fairness' is supposedly the motivation for this change then surely whether it's fair or not is fundamentally important.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

I hope this doesn't count as Threadomancy; Keevan said that I could bring it back up as long as I had a point.

I thought I would bring it back up because of a Field Poll released that showed that, depending on if people were informed that this would cause the Democrats to lose some electoral votes if approved, the results on the measure were:

47% in Favor
35% opposed

Or (with the informing)

49% in favor
42% opposed

It's close, but scary to think that the initiative could seriously pass. If it does, you can bet that the Democrats will drag it immediately to the Supreme Court, where they will have to face a conservative majority of justices led by John Roberts.
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Post by Tsyroc »

Do those stats imply that there might be a fair amount of Republicans in California and that their votes might be under represented with how California is currently divided up?

I suppose enough people might just think it's a better way to do things.

Just looking at how they plan to divide up the electoral votes I like it because it isn't winner take all anymore. 1 vote for winning a district with 2 going to the statewide winner. It could really make things interesting.

If it does pass the situation doesn't bode all that well for the Democrats if they've really been counting on carrying California to win the election for them. It does kind of suck that California might switch over when most of the rest of the states will still be using their old winner take all method.

If we aren't going to go to a full popular vote I'd like to see division of the electoral votes in all of the states.
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

Tsyroc wrote:Do those stats imply that there might be a fair amount of Republicans in California and that their votes might be under represented with how California is currently divided up?

I suppose enough people might just think it's a better way to do things.

Just looking at how they plan to divide up the electoral votes I like it because it isn't winner take all anymore. 1 vote for winning a district with 2 going to the statewide winner. It could really make things interesting.

If it does pass the situation doesn't bode all that well for the Democrats if they've really been counting on carrying California to win the election for them. It does kind of suck that California might switch over when most of the rest of the states will still be using their old winner take all method.

If we aren't going to go to a full popular vote I'd like to see division of the electoral votes in all of the states.
I wouldn't oppose it, either, under normal circumstances; I generally do not like the Winner-Takes-All system. However, keeping in mind that

A)This is not too long before the election,
B)This is being run by one of the lawyers who set up Swift Boat and the Gray Davis Recall,
C)There's no similar movement in other states,

it's a bad idea. I posted the poll because the OP article mentioned a representative saying that it would simply get annihilated by the public, and it very well might, but the Field Poll indicated otherwise. I'd really prefer that this got defeated by voting, rather than going to the Supreme Court.
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Post by Omega18 »

Guardsman Bass wrote:I hope this doesn't count as Threadomancy; Keevan said that I could bring it back up as long as I had a point.

I thought I would bring it back up because of a Field Poll released that showed that, depending on if people were informed that this would cause the Democrats to lose some electoral votes if approved, the results on the measure were:

47% in Favor
35% opposed

Or (with the informing)

49% in favor
42% opposed

It's close, but scary to think that the initiative could seriously pass. If it does, you can bet that the Democrats will drag it immediately to the Supreme Court, where they will have to face a conservative majority of justices led by John Roberts.
The reality is those are still clearly losing poll numbers because virtually any ballot measure loses support as people become more aware of potential issues and it gets attacked as its get close to election time. It needs to be beyond 50% at this point in order to have a chance of passing. Furthermore a previous poll from not that long ago showed support for the measure to be far lower, so the margin of error is almost certainly on the high side for the support number for the poll. (I.E. they happened to poll an unusual number of Republicans, which seems likely to be the case by the way.)
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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong »

The idea of one state having a radically different electroral system than all of the other states is crazy, but it's pretty obvious what the motivations behind this are. I could see it passing; America has been bent over and getting fucked up the ass by the Rich Guy lobby for a long time. Why stop now?
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Guardsman Bass
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Post by Guardsman Bass »

Omega18 wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:I hope this doesn't count as Threadomancy; Keevan said that I could bring it back up as long as I had a point.

I thought I would bring it back up because of a Field Poll released that showed that, depending on if people were informed that this would cause the Democrats to lose some electoral votes if approved, the results on the measure were:

47% in Favor
35% opposed

Or (with the informing)

49% in favor
42% opposed

It's close, but scary to think that the initiative could seriously pass. If it does, you can bet that the Democrats will drag it immediately to the Supreme Court, where they will have to face a conservative majority of justices led by John Roberts.
The reality is those are still clearly losing poll numbers because virtually any ballot measure loses support as people become more aware of potential issues and it gets attacked as its get close to election time. It needs to be beyond 50% at this point in order to have a chance of passing. Furthermore a previous poll from not that long ago showed support for the measure to be far lower, so the margin of error is almost certainly on the high side for the support number for the poll. (I.E. they happened to poll an unusual number of Republicans, which seems likely to be the case by the way.)
That's what I'm hoping will happen (it will get defeated). Still, if the Republicans pushing for it decided to make it a battle, it could drain away resources that the Democrats would prefer to dedicate to the 2008 campaign. And that's only in the initiative stage, where they have to make a push to criticize and attack it.
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