Snipers using "Bait" in Iraq

[Illuminatus Primus]

The stupidity of this is fucking jaw-dropping. Apparently nobody in the US armed forces command structure who comes up with these things is capable of any sort of rational thought.

Some of that stuff they drop as bait can be dangerous in the wrong hands, such as if a kid picks up something he doesn't know about and it goes wrong. Things like certain types of detonation cord and other explosives and munitions. So someone who does know what they are could very well pick them up just to bring them in somewhere or dispose of them in a more secure manner, so they just get offed on suspicion?

Damn fucking right they charge those snipers with murder, but they really should go the whole hog and charge the entire goddamn command chain at every level until they get to the fucknut who came up with this shit and put it in practice with that kind of loose (some would say nonexistent) guidelines.

I bet this shit is going to go down REALLY well with the Iraqis. The surprising things is that US troops and mercenaries aren't getting their throats cut every time they turn around.

Or economic: I'm sure that shit sells great. The problem is you have no way of knowing if the individual in question would ever have used or sold weapons to be used against the occupation or collaboration state apparatus. Its an ineffective way to disrupt systematically existing insurgent forces and groups and deter or prevent attacks against occupation or collaboration forces. But it is a great way to exaggerate your kill count and effectiveness as a soldier or unit by using tactics like these and systematically misrepresenting the background in reports that claim you "shot terrorist collecting bomb-making materials." Its like our Vietnam kill counts and staged village burnings, etc. Ineffective at fighting a COIN war in theater, but great for potentially killing a bunch of innocent or unnecessary people of the nation you occupy and pushing a politics back home.

[General Zod]

No. It's just that if somebody leaves a bullet lying in the road (as I rarely go into backwoods areas anyway), it will likely raise some suspicion, as to who the hell was carrying live rounds down my street. It's the same as with the bait in Iraq, where they just drop the ammo and det cords in the street and on the sidewalks for people to pick up.

Ahem.

though if I know it's a live bullet, I definately won't pick it up

A bullet simply lying on the ground is not dangerous in and of itself. This post sounded as though you were implying it was.

[Sea Skimmer]

A bullet simply lying on the ground is not dangerous in and of itself. This post sounded as though you were implying it was.

Actually people have been killed plenty of times after they picked up live cartridges which exploded. If the ammo is old, the primer can go off just from being disturbed and the casing may rip apart in the process. Its even worse in a war zone, since its been very common in history for one side or the other to produce bobby trapped ammunition and then leave it behind for the enemy to pick up. Sometimes it’s an instant kill kind of bobby trap, other times its more cunning, such as replacing the propellant inside a cartridge case with a chunk of high explosive that will blow the gun apart when fired.

Picking up an unknown detonator is just insane.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

It really seems that the cases are more about the planting of evidence, while the article tries to make it about the use of authorized (but most likely illegal, and definitely immorally collateral damage prone) tactics.

[Sturmfalke]

This is fucking Iraq, a place were people being blow up by roadside bombs are a daily incident and have been for THREE plus years. You don't fucking walk around picking up strange looking things, that kind of shit should have been trained out of the local populace.

If you are a poor Iraqi and you see a spool of wire lying on the ground, why not pick it up and sell it? As far as I know the terrain is not mined with "innocent" objects being rigged up as booby traps. I agree that you wouldn't do this with objects resembling a bomb or explosives, but most people might not know how detonator wire looks like (including me, but I don't live in a war zone so it might be more commonly known there).

[Walsh]

Wait a tick everyone

This is fucking Iraq, a place were people being blow up by roadside bombs are a daily incident and have been for THREE plus years. You don't fucking walk around picking up strange looking things, that kind of shit should have been trained out of the local populace.

I don't support the tactics of the snipers and call it questionable under the Geneva conventions. But seriously who the fuck is going to in Iraq right now if they see something strange walk over there and pick it up?

I mean what the flying fuck?

The other day I saw a documentary on the children of Vietnamese agent orange victims, during the course of the doco a couple of families were shown which actually make a living salvaging old ammunition and unexploded ordnance in spite of the enormous risk.

Granted, the situation for the Iraqis is more dangerous than for the modern-day Vietnamese, but food is food, and you do what you have to if you want to eat.

[Durandal]

Great, so now any Iraqi who wants to do the right thing and take that ammo off the street and, say, turn it into local authorities, gets a bullet in the head for his trouble.

Winning the hearts and minds, one shot at a time.

[Ender]

I would be very interested in hearing what Rob Wilson, the only person on this board who is a sniper and has been in Iraq, has to say about this.

[Spyder]

I don't support the tactics of the snipers and call it questionable under the Geneva conventions. But seriously who the fuck is going to in Iraq right now if they see something strange walk over there and pick it up?

I mean what the flying fuck?

So we're shooting people in the head now for not being cautious? There's also "hey, someone left some dangerous shit here, I'd better hand this shit over." or "hey there's some random shit here, maybe there might be something useful amongst it for a completely non millitary application."

[Plekhanov]

Wait a tick everyone

This is fucking Iraq, a place were people being blow up by roadside bombs are a daily incident and have been for THREE plus years. You don't fucking walk around picking up strange looking things, that kind of shit should have been trained out of the local populace.

I don't support the tactics of the snipers and call it questionable under the Geneva conventions. But seriously who the fuck is going to in Iraq right now if they see something strange walk over there and pick it up?

I mean what the flying fuck?

There are plenty of poor people in Iraq who'd risk picking up something of value, I've no doubt there are also plenty of dumb people who'd pick interesting stuff up just to see what it is, I see no reason why atleast some Iraqi's won't be of the mindset that 'bad things happen to other people' and consequently take silly risks.

[chitoryu12]

I just had an arguement with my mother about this. She actually does not have an issue with it because "insurgents are known to coerce civilians into doing things for them". I even asked her if it was acceptable to kill innocents on the tiniest suspicion and she said yes. That's why I don't like to argue with her. She says things that are somewhat ambiguously true and talks at length to keep you from responding. What would be the best response to her?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I just had an arguement with my mother about this. She actually does not have an issue with it because "insurgents are known to coerce civilians into doing things for them". I even asked her if it was acceptable to kill innocents on the tiniest suspicion and she said yes. That's why I don't like to argue with her. She says things that are somewhat ambiguously true and talks at length to keep you from responding. What would be the best response to her?

Ask her if she would like to be shot by one of those guys, and to stop thinking of the civilians there as animals.

[Knife]

I just had an arguement with my mother about this. She actually does not have an issue with it because "insurgents are known to coerce civilians into doing things for them". I even asked her if it was acceptable to kill innocents on the tiniest suspicion and she said yes. That's why I don't like to argue with her. She says things that are somewhat ambiguously true and talks at length to keep you from responding. What would be the best response to her?

That by her logic, she should go to jail for drug possession because of trace amounts of drugs on her paper money.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

She says things that are somewhat ambiguously true and talks at length to keep you from responding. What would be the best response to her?

Cut her off loudly and forcefully with ready facts, dissections of her logical and ethical faults in her arguments etc.. Keep filling the air with a wall of words so she gets a taste of her own medicine. I know it's a rather despicable tactic resembling a Bill O'Reilly attack, but that's the only way to stop that kind of bad debating behavior.

Don't be surprised if she abuses her parental authority and tries silencing you with punishment or threats thereof in an attempt to score a cheap victory or crush your dissent.

[chitoryu12]

Don't be surprised if she abuses her parental authority and tries silencing you with punishment or threats thereof in an attempt to score a cheap victory or crush your dissent.

Oh, I wouldn't be suprised. She likes to do that. If I do cut her off, she'll usually get loud and belligerent and start calling me annoying. She's done stupid things like that when I argued religion (namely the fact that I will likely not belive in God even when I am about to die) and Mother Theresa (all she did then was just walk off while handing me some work to do so I would be too busy to answer and would likely just forget about it).

[Darth Wong]

Dude, she's your mother. You can't win an argument with your own mother no matter what you say, because she still sees you as an baby in a grown-up body.

[rhoenix]

My mother is similar - I know better than to debate with her now, since she takes disagreement as a personal emotional assault and responds accordingly.

I listen to what she has to say, and move on with my life - whether I agree or not.