Woman survives eight days in wrecked SUV
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Yes, because I try not to have completely unsupported opinions. The opinion that I do have, and that I do believe is supported, is that governmental agencies should be open to litigation if they act foolishly, regardless of whether or not those actions are following policy to the letter, as you claimed.
What do I think the police should have done? I think they shouldn't have let the missing person case languish for (at a guess) about four days simply because there was activity on a shared bank account. I do think they should have looked at cell phone records (with the husband's permission, of course) to see if she was moving and/or out of the area (a likely runaway). Such action is effectively free (both cost and time) and poses no risk of infringement of rights if they had the husband's consent.
I won't formulate a system-wide policy on missing persons cases because I don't know enough. None of us do. But I can point to the parts of the policy that don't appear to make any sense.
What do I think the police should have done? I think they shouldn't have let the missing person case languish for (at a guess) about four days simply because there was activity on a shared bank account. I do think they should have looked at cell phone records (with the husband's permission, of course) to see if she was moving and/or out of the area (a likely runaway). Such action is effectively free (both cost and time) and poses no risk of infringement of rights if they had the husband's consent.
I won't formulate a system-wide policy on missing persons cases because I don't know enough. None of us do. But I can point to the parts of the policy that don't appear to make any sense.
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Have other police departments around the country chimed in to confirm that any deviation from the policies employed in this case would lead to an unacceptable burden upon the department? Since this particular department is in full CYA mode, it seems like a bad idea to take them at their word on this.SancheztheWhaler wrote:I know the kneejerk reaction is blame the cops for not immediately beginning to look for this woman, but in doing so you are ignoring the larger question of where do you want police resources committed? If they act the way some of you are suggesting they should every time a missing persons report is filed, the police themselves are saying they wouldn't have time for anything but to look for missing people.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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You have a detective that specialises in missing persons talk to her friends and coworkers to try and figure out if it was in fact a situation where she decided to take off on her own and move on from there.SancheztheWhaler wrote:OK - let's bring this back to the situation at hand, rather than all disappearances and missing persons cases. A wife disappears on her way home. The police have a policy (right or wrong) that they don't accept missing persons reports for a day or two, because in the majority of cases (according to them, I can't find any statistics to support or contradict this) people who are missing turn up in a day or two. There is apparently activity on the woman's bank card, suggesting that she disappeared on her own.Flagg wrote:That the police will investigate a person reported as missing, find out what the situation is, and procede from there?SancheztheWhaler wrote: You realize the implications of this, right?
What sort of search should the police have launched immediately? Keep in mind, pulling officers off of patrol duty to search for a woman who, by all appearances, disappeared of her own volition, means you won't have officers out on patrol. And (again according to the police) in most cases people who disappear like this turn up on their own in a couple of days.
I'm not necessarily saying that the police did anything wrong in this case, I really don't know.
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False dilemma - that's not the choice being made here, so it has no bearing on this case.weemadando wrote:Given the general policing theory in the US, I'd say the following about policing resources.
I'd far prefer to have police looking for missing persons than burning time on $10 marijuana buy busts to meet quotas.
I can't say that I've ever heard police departments commenting officially on policies (or even actions) of other police departments, good, bad or ugly. I certainly haven't heard any other police department commenting about the validity of this policy. Within the state no other police agencies have commented, although politicians and the public certainly have. I think this case is going to encourage the development of a statewide missing persons policy, as opposed to differing policies by city and county.Darth Wong wrote:Have other police departments around the country chimed in to confirm that any deviation from the policies employed in this case would lead to an unacceptable burden upon the department? Since this particular department is in full CYA mode, it seems like a bad idea to take them at their word on this.SancheztheWhaler wrote:I know the kneejerk reaction is blame the cops for not immediately beginning to look for this woman, but in doing so you are ignoring the larger question of where do you want police resources committed? If they act the way some of you are suggesting they should every time a missing persons report is filed, the police themselves are saying they wouldn't have time for anything but to look for missing people.
That being said, most police departments in Washington State have similar policies regarding missing adults (i.e., there is a waiting period before they'll file a missing persons report and begin an investigation).
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That does appear to be what they did, beginning on the 23rd or 24th of September, after the official missing persons report was filed. The criticism from the husband seems to be twofold:Flagg wrote:You have a detective that specialises in missing persons talk to her friends and coworkers to try and figure out if it was in fact a situation where she decided to take off on her own and move on from there.
I'm not necessarily saying that the police did anything wrong in this case, I really don't knw.
1. He wasn't able to file a missing persons report immediately (on the 20th, the day after she disappeared) due to department policy.
2. The police did not immediately ping her cell phone and launch a physical search for her along roads and highways. They talked to friends and co-workers first, checked bank records, etc.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
Interesting update - if it's true the 911 folks are in serious trouble.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/333 ... r01ww.htmlWoman trapped in car for 8 days tells husband she called 911
Monday, October 1, 2007
Last updated 9:44 a.m. PT
By ELIZABETH GILLESPIE
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
A woman who survived more than a week trapped in the wreckage of her sport-utility vehicle woke up in her hospital bed Monday morning and told her husband she remembers making a 911 call.
"She was very coherent and she remembered being trapped, which is kind of devastating all by itself, and she believes she made a 911 call," Tanya Rider's husband, Tom, told The Associated Press.
It was not immediately clear if the call was made. Tom Rider has asked authorities to review his wife's cell phone records to find out.
He said he has not had a chance to review the registry of outgoing calls on his wife's cell phone, but said he doesn't believe the call would show up because 911 calls he made recently on his cell phone don't show up among his outgoing calls.
"The only reason I'm giving the governor and the sheriff the benefit of the doubt is that her mind could have played tricks on her being trapped for eight days," Tom Rider said.
A King County sheriff's spokesman did not immediately return a call for comment.
Investigators believe Tanya Rider ran off the road Sept. 20 while driving home after working an overnight shift at a department store. Search crews using cell phone technology found her Thursday in her mangled SUV in a ravine off a highway in Renton, southeast of Seattle, on the route she drives home from work.
Tom Rider has bitterly described his fight to get authorities to launch a search for his wife. King County Sheriff Sue Rahr has ordered a review of all 911 calls related to Tanya Rider's case, saying that if any mistakes were made, they'll be addressed.
The 33-year-old Maple Valley woman was taken to the hospital in critical condition suffering from kidney failure, dehydration, a badly injured left leg, a broken collar bone and a deep gash on her forehead. She was upgraded to serious condition on Sunday.
On Monday morning, Tom Rider said his wife was "doing much better than anyone could ever expect." He said she was undergoing surgery for the damage to her forehead, and to close up skin on her injured left leg, which doctors have said they hope they will not have to amputate.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
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This whole story makes me think about those GM OnStar commercials. That could certainly come in handy in a case like this.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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It sure does and also reminds me why that it shouldn't be something that you pay a monthly fee for as well. Even if the extra features are charged for emergency assistance should be a free service. The other services can be optional but that one feature should be free for anyone owning a GM(or any car) car.Darth Wong wrote:This whole story makes me think about those GM OnStar commercials. That could certainly come in handy in a case like this.
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That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
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The latest update says there is no phone record of her calling 911. It appears that her memory is faulty.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/333 ... r01ww.html
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/333 ... r01ww.html
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
It can happen... she could have hallucinated calling 911 due to her injuries.SancheztheWhaler wrote:The latest update says there is no phone record of her calling 911. It appears that her memory is faulty.
However, (suspicious bastard mode)there is also the chance the police are covering their hides by removing that phonecall from the records.(/end mode)
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Yet another update:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/333837_rider02.htmlTimeline shows confusion early in missing woman investigation
By HECTOR CASTRO
P-I REPORTER
The King County Sheriff's Office on Monday released a timeline of its investigation into the disappearance of Tanya Rider, revealing a confusing series of calls the first day she was reported missing -- two days after she is believed to have wrecked her SUV and crashed in some brush along a busy road.
Rider's husband, Tom, first reported her missing Sept. 22, two days after she left her job at the Fred Meyer store in Factoria.
There were five calls made to the sheriff's Communication Center that morning, two of them from Tanya Rider's supervisor who, at one point, says of Tom Rider, "something's not right with this guy's story."
In his final call to the Sheriff's Office that day, Tom Rider was told by a call-taker that his wife did not meet the criteria necessary to file a missing person's report, and he suggested that Rider check local jails and hospitals for his wife.
It wasn't until Sept. 23, when Tom Rider called again, that a call-taker documented his wife as missing.
But it was that exchange the day before that has prompted Rider to criticize the Sheriff's Office policies on missing person's investigations. He has argued that his wife could have been found much earlier had the Sheriff's Office taken the report the first time he called.
But Monday, Sheriff Sue Rahr said the policy is flexible and meant to be used to screen reports of missing people. Signs of foul play or conditions that make the missing person particularly vulnerable raise the level of concern.
Those were not factors in Tanya Rider's case.
The timeline demonstrates investigators first thought the case should be handled by Bellevue Police, because that was where Tanya Rider was last seen. But images from a surveillance camera showed Tanya Rider getting into her Honda sport utility vehicle and driving away from work, and away from Bellevue.
The case ended up with King County investigators.
The next day, Sept. 24, an investigator contacted Tanya Rider's cell phone provider, but was rebuffed in her efforts to get any account information without a court order.
Investigators need probable cause to get a search warrant that would allow them access to such records, Rahr said. In this case, that probable cause did not exist at first.
Part of the problem was that it appeared that Tanya Rider was fine because investigators saw activity on a bank account Tom Rider had told them only his wife could access, including a $20 withdrawal Sept. 25.
On Sept. 26, Tom Rider told investigators he did have access to the account and had made that withdrawal. He said he was likely misunderstood earlier because he was so exhausted.
The next day, Sept. 27, detectives contacted Verizon again and filed a form explaining the circumstances in order to obtain Tanya Rider's cell phone records. By 10:15 a.m. they learned that the last call to her cell phone was routed through a tower at 15734 203rd Ave. S.E., near state Route 169 east of Renton, where she was later found.
The tower information narrowed the search area to a radius of three to five miles.
By 12:30 p.m. that day, detectives were provided with all the records from Tanya Rider's cell phone. They located the missing woman by 2:15 p.m.
Rahr said it was not pinging, as has been widely reported, but simply working from that cell phone tower location that helped investigators find her.
"There's been a lot of misinformation in this case," she said.
Monday, Tom Rider said his wife told him she called 911 after her accident, but the Sheriff's Office said there was no record of any such call.
"We have confirmed she did not," Rahr said. "We were able to look at the phone records."
While Tom Rider has been vocal in his criticism of how the Sheriff's Office handled the investigation, Rahr did not back down in defending her agency.
Though she did say the policy would be reviewed, she added that Tanya Rider's case was unique. For example, other than work, Tanya Rider had no social network from which she was initially missed. She had little contact with her family, no children requiring her care, and a different work schedule from her husband, one reason he didn't even realize she was missing for two days.
"They lead very individual lives," Rahr said.
The initial belief that Tanya Rider had been using her account also complicated matters, making detectives think at first that the woman had left for a reason.
Rahr, who was attending a ceremony marking October as Domestic Violence Awareness Month, noted, "The more common thing when a woman disappears of their own accord is that they don't want to be found."
Rider, 33, remains at Harborview Medical Center, recovering from injuries she suffered in the crash, which was believed to have occurred the morning of Sept. 20.
Harborview spokeswoman Susan Gregg-Hansen said Rider remains in the intensive care unit, but her condition has been upgraded from critical to serious. She is no longer on a ventilator and can breathe on her own.
Rider suffered injuries to her shoulder and her left leg was badly damaged in the crash. She will require more surgery, including skin grafts, to repair that leg, as well as the sores she developed from being stuck in her vehicle for so long, Gregg-Hansen said.
Her kidneys, damaged from her severe dehydration, have begun functioning normally.
Rider is healing nicely, Gregg-Hansen said, and could be moved out of the ICU within the next two days.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
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Since the two are seperate divisions you don't have to worry about that anyway.weemadando wrote:Given the general policing theory in the US, I'd say the following about policing resources.
I'd far prefer to have police looking for missing persons than burning time on $10 marijuana buy busts to meet quotas.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
Update - the Sheriff defended the KCSO's policies while simultaneously apologizing to the husband and promising to be more "customer service oriented" in the future. Probably the best outcome we could hope for given what has transpired, but I'm not holding my breath to see if he still goes ahead and sues.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/334297_tapes05.htmlSheriff apologizes, won't alter policy
Rahr vows changes in dealings with families
By HECTOR CASTRO
P-I REPORTER
Tom Rider's efforts to find his missing wife began with a phone call to 911, tapes of which the King County Sheriff's Office released Thursday.
"My wife didn't show up for work last night, and she's not home, and I haven't heard from her in two days," Rider told the operator when asked what he was reporting in his first call to the King County Communications Center at 7:44 a.m. Sept. 22.
Rider's frustration mounted after that first call. He had to call three more times and wait until Sept. 23 before he reached a sympathetic call taker who wrote a missing persons report on Tanya Rider.
Ultimately, King County sheriff's investigators discovered her the afternoon of Sept. 27 inside her wrecked Honda Element, the vehicle smashed down an embankment off state Route 169 in Maple Valley, where she had apparently been trapped for a week.Thursday, King County Sheriff Sue Rahr said her office could have done a better job of helping Tom Rider understand what investigators would do and what its process is to find a missing person.
Tom Rider has complained that the policies of the Sheriff's Office on missing person investigations kept deputies from searching for his wife sooner. But Rahr has said, and repeated at Thursday's news conference, that the policies are appropriate and were followed correctly.
Still, she said, her agency could have given Tom Rider better "customer service" as he sought to report his wife missing.
"Could we have done more? Yes, we could have. I think we could have reduced Tom's sense of frustration and helplessness if we had done a better job of explaining to him how the process worked, and been more specific in explaining what he could do in the meantime to help," Rahr said at the news conference.
Then, turning to Tom Rider, who was standing at her side, she added, "For that, Tom, I apologize, and I assure you we will do a better job in the future."
Rider said he was pleased to see that his wife's ordeal might lead to changes he believes are positive.
"It's a step in the right direction," he said.
Rahr promised to work for legislative changes that would make it easier for law enforcement officers to obtain cell phone records, such as those that helped them find Tanya Rider. Detectives were able to locate the last cell phone tower used to route a call to her phone, and also learned the phone had not moved from that location for several days.
With that information, detectives narrowed the search area. Sgt. Mark Toner, walking along the highway in that search zone, peered over an embankment and spotted the wrecked SUV with Rider inside.
She remains at Harborview Medical Center, where she is expected to remain for several weeks recovering from the injuries suffered in that crash.
Rahr said that even had Tom Rider filed his missing person report upon his first call to 911, getting a search warrant for that kind of cell phone information still takes time. But, she said, she believes there is a way for cell phone companies to release this information to investigators sooner, without any liability and without violating anyone's privacy. She promised to work with other police officials and legislators to accomplish this.
While that work will take time, the sheriff said she has directed her staff to make one immediate change -- compiling a list of area hospitals and jails that can be provided to anyone who calls 911 to report a missing person.
This, she said, will help them make those initial calls to determine if the person they are seeking has been injured or arrested.
Tom Rider was told several times to contact all local hospitals and jails for his wife, at one point being told no missing person report would be taken unless he did so. Dutifully, he made the calls.
Rahr also said she would see whether chaplains or volunteers could help those looking for a missing person in instances where the case has not yet reached the level that would entail a missing person report.
Sgt. John Urquhart called the Rider case "one in a million," complicated by the lifestyles of the couple involved -- they both worked two jobs on offsetting schedules. That was one reason it took a phone call from Tanya Rider's supervisor before Tom Rider even knew his wife was missing.
The 911 tapes released Thursday revealed the uphill battle Tom Rider fought before he could report his wife's disappearance.
As it turned out, Tanya Rider was last seen on Sept. 20 as she climbed into her brand new Honda Element after leaving her graveyard shift at the Fred Meyer store in Bellevue.
Her supervisor called Tom Rider on Sept. 21 to ask why Tanya Rider had not shown up for work. Saturday, Sept. 22, Rider made his first call to 911, reaching King County's communication center.
In his first three calls to 911, Tom Rider runs up against what experience and statistics have taught police about missing people -- most disappear by choice or they have been arrested or injured and hospitalized.
So the operators repeatedly tell Rider to check local hospitals and jails despite his protestations that his wife was not likely to have been arrested.
"She wouldn't be in jail. She's never been in trouble a day in her life," he tells one operator.
By his third call to 911, Rider is clearly frustrated, having already checked hospitals, and with his wife's family. But he has yet to have checked with jails and the third operator insists that's a step he must take.
Rider's mounting anger is evident in the lengthy phone call and at one point he says, "My wife is gone and you're talking to me like she's walked away. No."
The operator is not swayed, telling Rider, "We don't go out actively looking for missing people."
He insists Rider check all jails.
Rider grows upset as his efforts to persuade the operator to take a report continue to be rebuffed.
"What you're telling me is unless she turns up dead, you're not gonna care," he finally says. A short while later, he adds, "Maybe I'll just call the media and complain to them."
Frustrated, he finally went to the media Sept. 25, offering a $25,000 reward of his own money only two days before Tanya Rider finally was found.
EXCERPTS FROM TOM RIDER'S SEPT. 22 CALLS TO 911
RIDER: "What you're telling me is unless she turns up dead, you're not gonna care. How are you gonna feel if she is found dead tomorrow?"
OPERATOR (interrupting): "Well, no, what we're telling you is that ... she doesn't meet the criteria. ... We don't go out looking for people that are missing, which is what she is considered at this point. ... Keep checking the jails and the hospitals."
RIDER: "I'm telling you, something has happened to my wife
and you're treating it like, 'Oh well, this f***ing idiot,
his wife just left him. Aw, hell with it.' "
OPERATOR: "No, I'm telling you that it doesn't meet the criteria
for a missing person, sir. Sir, you need to call the jails
in the vicinity. ..."
OPERATOR: "Until you do that we're not going to be taking a report."
RIDER: "Maybe I'll just call the media and complain to them."
"I APOLOGIZE"
King County Sheriff Sue Rahr at Thursday's news conference: "Could we have done more? Yes, we could have. I think we could have reduced Tom's sense of frustration and helplessness if we had done a better job of explaining to him how the process worked, and been more specific in explaining what he could do in the meantime to help. For that, Tom, I apologize. And I assure you we will do a better job in the future."
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better