Political Proposal re: the Moon

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Political Proposal re: the Moon

Post by Coyote »

Okay, I was reading this article at MSNBC...

MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIF. - Google and X PRIZE officials unveiled nine new privately funded teams today that will compete for $30 million in the Google Lunar X PRIZE challenge, a race to the moon.

"It's not just a new mission," said Peter Diamandis, Chairman and CEO of the X PRIZE Foundation, during the announcement here at Google's headquarters. "It's a new way of doing business."

The new teams join the Isle of Man-based Odyssey Moon team that was the first group to take up the challenge.


Google co-founder Sergey Brin said he was amazed that so many competitors had signed up so soon after the prize's announcement.

"I was floored," Brin told the team members and reporters who attended the press conference. "We had no such expectation."

Brin credited Google's participation to conversation he had had with Diamandis and mutual friend and Silicon Valley entrepreneur-turned-rocket builder, Elon Musk, the founder of SpaceX.

Large companies often invest money in entertainment ventures or sponsor competitions and competitors in events like boat races, Brin said. But those ventures are limited in their purpose.

"We should be doing new kinds of things as companies," Brin said. "If we're going to sponsoring things it should be for discoveries."


The Google Lunar X PRIZE Cup organizers also announced their partnership with Space Florida, a group vested in drawing the Sunshine State onto the commercial spaceflight map. Voted into creation in 2006, the local organization is offering launch site services and $2 million in extra prize money to the winning team if they blast off from Florida.

"The folks at Space Florida are really offering to enhance the prize purse at a significant level," Brett Alexander, executive director of space prizes for the X PRIZE Foundation, told SPACE.com. "It lowers the bar and makes it easier for teams to compete."

Steve Kohler, Space Florida president, said that launching a commercial spacecraft to the moon from Florida would add to the state's rich spaceflight history as home to Cape Canaveral Air Force Station and NASA's Kennedy Space Center.

"Florida's long been recognized as a preeminent leader in any activity that involves our exploration of the moon," Kohler said. "Part of our effort as a state and as an organization is to continue that legacy. We believe (this competition) will allow the state to become a future hub for commercial projects."

According to Google Lunar X PRIZE rules, 90 percent of a winning team's funding must come from the private sector to qualify for a piece of $30 million in total prize money.

The first team to land their robot on the moon and complete a gauntlet of tasks with it by Dec. 31, 2012, will snatch the $20 million grand prize. In 2013, the first-place purse drops to $15 million and will expire on Dec. 31, 2014.
(there's a second page to the article not copied here).

Here's what I was contemplating-- this picture and it's caption in particular:


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An artist's view of the "Moondancer" lander/rover at the Sea of Tranquility, where Apollo 11 touched down in 1969. Quantum3, the spacecraft's designer, hopes to win the top Google Lunar X PRIZE Cup purse.


Maybe it's just me, thinking in terms as a historian, but I'd think that the site of the original 1969 Neil Armstrong Moon landing would be/should be an internationally recognised historical preserve.

Admittedly, I just saw this story and posted here, and my concerns may already be addressed-- I don't know if I should look to NASA or UN information, or what-- but I think that making the area of the first Moon landing a historical preserve, so that all these private companies have to keep their dick-skinners off of the ...remains? Wreckage? -- is in the interests of all humanity.

I do, to be clear, wholly applaud the idea of getting private companies motivated to carry the space race, but am I being overly sentimental in feeling that humanity's greatest "first" should not end up paved over in the process?
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

That's fucking badass. It kinda looks like the days of the 'gentleman adventurer' might be coming back.
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Post by Simplicius »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:That's fucking badass. It kinda looks like the days of the 'gentleman adventurer' might be coming back.
...only problem being, the financial and technical threshold for gentlemanship is higher than it used to be. Hopefully we proles will at least get some dime novels out of the deal.

The Apollo 11 site is not presently on UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites or a US National Historic Landmark. However, other people have thought the same way as Coyote:

Two New Mexico State grad students are working on the issue and received a small ($23,000) grant to map the site and its artifacts and nominate it for national Historic Landmarc status, which is apparently a prerequisite to UNESCO recognition.

http://spacegrant.nmsu.edu/lunarlegacies/whatsnew.html
http://www.nmsu.edu/~ucomm/Releases/200 ... dmoon.html
http://www.space.com/news/spacehistory/ ... 00418.html

A few other people have argued for the same thing. I wasn't able to find any indication of progress made, though.
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Re: Political Proposal re: the Moon

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Coyote wrote:I do, to be clear, wholly applaud the idea of getting private companies motivated to carry the space race, but am I being overly sentimental in feeling that humanity's greatest "first" should not end up paved over in the process?
I agree. One would think that there are plenty of places to land and explore on the Moon that don't have to be undertaken at that spot. There's probably a certain amount of "best" places to land and places to avoid, in terms of geographical suitability (no landers coming down on the edge of a crater or in particularly rocky/uneven terrain) and those should be open up as future landing sites, but surely there is enough room to set aside the historical first landing sites.

On the other hand, it would be interesting if someone was able to charge up one of the Rovers (left behind by the astronauts) and see if they still work. :)
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Post by Jadeite »

There is nothing in the article that says anyone is planning on landing at the original landing site. You do realize that the Sea of Tranquility is a huge area right?
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

Jadeite wrote:There is nothing in the article that says anyone is planning on landing at the original landing site. You do realize that the Sea of Tranquility is a huge area right?
I was under the impression that Coyote was talking about future landings in general?
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Post by Coyote »

Future landings in general, as private companies get on the ball and if we see space tourism pick up. I'm thinking years down the road. I'm not sure if every site should be marked off-- maybe th efirst one and the last one, and maybe the site of the first Russian probe that landed there, the first man-made object (IIRC) to make it that far.

The article did have the picture mentioning the Sea of Tranquility specifcally where the Apollo-11 astronauts set down, and if you look at th epicture it is a badly-photoshopped image of the LEM with a bunch of goofy-ass solar panels plastered onto it. The idea of taking the Apollo-11 landing site and using it for a Texaco station just seemed wrong to me. I know that's not exactly what the photo and caption was proposing, but it did get me to wondering what, if any, sort of protection there was on the equipment left up there.

Perhaps the realm of Maritime Law and phrases regarding to abandoned ships would come into play; I think if the government that owns the ship maintains an active claim to it, it is still that country's sovereign territory. But enforcement isn't exactly easy on the Moon (hell, it's not easy on the high seas) and "abandoned" and "active claim" can be open for interpretation.

The landing site had equipment left behind that was still beaming signals back to Earth, so was it still an "active" landing site? Do we still receive signals from there? Does it still count as "claimed territory/vessel" if the Moon treaty-- like the Antarctic treaty-- states that no one nation has a right to claim the Moon as their own?

I can see the Apollo-11 site eventually becoming, I don't know, a sort of tourist area, even a chintzy tourist trap in decades to come, but I think the protections for the site should be in place before it becomes a problem.

I think I'll look into the local Democratic Party crowd I've been hanging with to see about petitions to US Senators and the like...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

Coyote wrote:The landing site had equipment left behind that was still beaming signals back to Earth, so was it still an "active" landing site? Do we still receive signals from there? Does it still count as "claimed territory/vessel" if the Moon treaty-- like the Antarctic treaty-- states that no one nation has a right to claim the Moon as their own?
Unless I'm mistaken, the only equipment on the Moon that's still being used are the passive laser reflectors left behind by the astronauts. As far as I know, there are no powered devices still working there.
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Post by DrMckay »

Coyote wrote: I can see the Apollo-11 site eventually becoming, I don't know, a sort of tourist area, even a chintzy tourist trap in decades to come, but I think the protections for the site should be in place before it becomes a problem.

See the second Futurama episode for a really good look at that...
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

DrMckay wrote:See the second Futurama episode for a really good look at that...
Wasn't there an episode of Enterprise that briefly showed one of the Mars rovers marked as a historical site? I know it's not quite the same thing, but it's nice to hope something similar could happen with the Lunar landing sites.
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Post by TimothyC »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
DrMckay wrote:See the second Futurama episode for a really good look at that...
Wasn't there an episode of Enterprise that briefly showed one of the Mars rovers marked as a historical site? I know it's not quite the same thing, but it's nice to hope something similar could happen with the Lunar landing sites.
The Shuttle landing in Terra Prime (Season 4).
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Post by Simplicius »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
DrMckay wrote:See the second Futurama episode for a really good look at that...
Wasn't there an episode of Enterprise that briefly showed one of the Mars rovers marked as a historical site? I know it's not quite the same thing, but it's nice to hope something similar could happen with the Lunar landing sites.
The Viking 1 lander is officially a part of the Smithsonian's collection. There's a document in the Air and Space Museum officially transferring ownership from NASA to the Smithsonian.
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