The End of Suburbia

[MKSheppard]

As for people masturbating over how "older homes were built bettar!" I remind you of the infamous Aluminum wire debacle in the 70s, when Copper prices skyrocketed, causing builders to experiment with Aluminum wiring.

While Aluminum IS lighter (always a consideration on mile-long high voltage lines); it's got all sorts of weird characteristics, like it likes to contract and expand A LOT; and it also loves to oxidize rapidly, meaning that in order for it to work; the electrician has to slather the bare wire with gunk to keep it clean.

[aerius]

Yup. I hated to jump onto the haterade wagon here; you guys sound like those guys in the early fifties railing against that new-fangled drywall....

"For a solid home, get plaster!"

was the cry of plasterers unions and plaster manufacturers.

A lathe plaster wall is good for 100 years or more with minimal maintenance. It's a lot harder to dent than drywall as well as being more resistant to moisture. It stands up to wear & tear a hell of a lot better than drywall. The only downside is it takes a month for the plaster to set & cure, and during that time it can't be painted, plus it costs a shitload of money.

And that "particleboard" you're railing against is OSB. It's just as strong as Plywood; and cheaper to make. It just doesn't look as pretty.

And it's not as durable or moisture resistant. It's why people end up falling through the roof when they're cleaning the eavestroughs.

But you're missing the point, there is no fucking way in hell a house built with 2x4 framing with chipboard sheets is going to be as strong or last as long as one that's built with concrete walls and nice big solid timber boards.

As for aluminum wire, it can always be pulled out and replaced, it might cost a small fortune but it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than a wholesale replacement of the structural components of a home.

[phongn]

But you're missing the point, there is no fucking way in hell a house built with 2x4 framing with chipboard sheets is going to be as strong or last as long as one that's built with concrete walls and nice big solid timber boards.

At least in Florida, most houses have heavily-reinforced concrete walls (my parents' house is actually built well above code ... but it hardly matters as a hurricane's storm surge will probably flood it). Unfortunately, a lot of contractors don't properly build the rest of the house to code, resulting in disappearing roofs come storm season.

[Darth Wong]

As for people masturbating over how "older homes were built bettar!" I remind you of the infamous Aluminum wire debacle in the 70s, when Copper prices skyrocketed, causing builders to experiment with Aluminum wiring.

While Aluminum IS lighter (always a consideration on mile-long high voltage lines); it's got all sorts of weird characteristics, like it likes to contract and expand A LOT; and it also loves to oxidize rapidly, meaning that in order for it to work; the electrician has to slather the bare wire with gunk to keep it clean.

As I said, there were plenty of shitty cheap houses in the 1970s. But you could tell they were cheap houses from a mile away.

[Simplicius]

Anecdotal evidence here, but I think it offers a meritorious example. The house I grew up in, and which my parents own outright, is well over a century old and all of the present structural difficulties can be attributed to some idiot removing a load-bearing wall to change the floor plan a couple of decades ago. It is the 1870s equivalent of a cheap standardized suburban house: a simple timber-frame offset entry, the likes of which were thrown up all over New England by building companies back in the day. Yet the original foundation is intact, original plaster walls and ceilings persist, and original cedar clapboards were present and in decent condition under the aluminum siding despite those few decades of neglect and moisture.

For what it's worth, my grandparents' house is even older than my parents'.

Taking the long view, building materials are undeniably shittier today than they were back then. Aerius's comment about timber seems to have been overlooked; not only is second- or third-growth timber knottier and less durable than old-growth, but the timbers themselves are smaller. Used to be you'd ask for a 2x4 from the sawmill, and they'd cut it larger so that the finished timber would fit the size specified. Now you don't even get a full 2x4 when you ask for one; I think sizes have shrunk by an eighth or something, so that the finished board will be well smaller than what it's supposed to be.

Plywood warps and delaminates when wet; particle board disintegrates. Fiberglass roofing shingles are less durable than the felt kind. Vinyl siding is a bitch because it doesn't breathe, even if it's easier for a lazy person to maintain, at least until it cracks or warps or needs to be removed because moisture has infiltrated beneath it.

You ask me, it'll be a downright miracle if these mediocre buildings are still standing a hundred years from now, between the materials and the ever-increasing inability of homeowners to take care of their own shit.

[The Spartan]

Used to be you'd ask for a 2x4 from the sawmill, and they'd cut it larger so that the finished timber would fit the size specified. Now you don't even get a full 2x4 when you ask for one; I think sizes have shrunk by an eighth or something, so that the finished board will be well smaller than what it's supposed to be.

The true dimensions of a 2 x 4 are actually 1.5 x 3.5 nowadays.

[Sarevok]

Just curious. What's the atittude in US towards living in apartment blocks instead of suburbs ?

[General Zod]

Just curious. What's the atittude in US towards living in apartment blocks instead of suburbs ?

"Apartments are for poor people" basically sums it up.

[Alferd Packer]

Just curious. What's the atittude in US towards living in apartment blocks instead of suburbs ?

There are two general attitudes, and they differ by region. If you live in or near a huge city with good public transit (like New York, Washington D.C. or Chicago), then apartment living is highly desirable and sought after(indeed, it may be the only option). If you live in the rest of the country(the majority of it, that is), then apartments are for college students, recent graduates, and the poor. Respectable people should avoid them at all costs(literally).

Personally, I get fucking sick and tired of hearing my neighbor's infant screaming its head off all night long, so I eagerly look forward to the day when I don't share a wall with a complete stranger. Or several.

[RogueIce]

Just curious. What's the atittude in US towards living in apartment blocks instead of suburbs ?

"Apartments are for poor people" basically sums it up.

Pretty much. My friend actually said he wanted to buy a house because the bank told him he could get a loan. When I told him he should just go for an apartment instead (he's not even 22 yet), he said an apartment would just be "wasting time".

Luckily (well, maybe not so much, but good enough) he had gotten talked into buying a new 2008 car. And since he's having trouble just paying for that, he realized that a house really is above his means, no matter what the bank tried to tell him. Granted it sucks that he's having difficulties with the car, but at least that's relatively small potatoes to what I'm sure would've happened if he'd tried for a frickin' house.

But the mindset that "apartments are for the poor" is definately there. Personally, I wouldn't mind an apartment, unless I was trying to raise a family or I managed to strike it rich somehow. It just seems like too much cost for relatively little gain.

[His Divine Shadow]

We're thinking of buying an apartment. Prices are finally going down and well, it seems to be a much better option to pay off a loan than a rent, with each payment you own the apartment a little bit more. And with a fixed rate you won't get raped on that incase shit hits the fan.

[General Zod]

We're thinking of buying an apartment. Prices are finally going down and well, it seems to be a much better option to pay off a loan than a rent, with each payment you own the apartment a little bit more. And with a fixed rate you won't get raped on that incase shit hits the fan.

Buying an apartment? Are you sure you're not mixing up apartments with condominiums? Or are you talking about buying the entire building?

[Alferd Packer]

Buying an apartment? Are you sure you're not mixing up apartments with condominiums? Or are you talking about buying the entire building?

Nope, you can indeed buy an apartment. The average price an apartment here in Manhattan is around $1.2 million.

[Block]

Used to be you'd ask for a 2x4 from the sawmill, and they'd cut it larger so that the finished timber would fit the size specified. Now you don't even get a full 2x4 when you ask for one; I think sizes have shrunk by an eighth or something, so that the finished board will be well smaller than what it's supposed to be.

The true dimensions of a 2 x 4 are actually 1.5 x 3.5 nowadays.

And have been since the 50's when they started standardized planing at lumbermills.

[Adrian Laguna]

I like the house I'm in right now. It's about a century old, I know for a fact it hasn't been properly maintained for almost 20 years, and strongly suspect it wasn't properly maintained for the previous 20 years either, yet it's still in fairly good condition. All it needs is new insulation in the roof and that some holes be patched-up in the basement. This will happen, because the owner has been complaining loudly about heating costs. Brick+timber=win.

[Beowulf]

We're thinking of buying an apartment. Prices are finally going down and well, it seems to be a much better option to pay off a loan than a rent, with each payment you own the apartment a little bit more. And with a fixed rate you won't get raped on that incase shit hits the fan.

Buying an apartment? Are you sure you're not mixing up apartments with condominiums? Or are you talking about buying the entire building?

A condo is nothing more than an apartment by another name. It's basically a dodge around the: "apartments are for poor people" thing.

[CmdrWilkens]

We're thinking of buying an apartment. Prices are finally going down and well, it seems to be a much better option to pay off a loan than a rent, with each payment you own the apartment a little bit more. And with a fixed rate you won't get raped on that incase shit hits the fan.

Buying an apartment? Are you sure you're not mixing up apartments with condominiums? Or are you talking about buying the entire building?

A condo is nothing more than an apartment by another name. It's basically a dodge around the: "apartments are for poor people" thing.

Even then not neccessarily because Condo's come in different varieties, thus the reason why folks often refer to multi-unit condo's as apartments. Condominium simply means that an association owns the land of the development and buying a piece of property both obligates you to pay a proportional share of common charges and instates you as a voting member of the association. That being said Condo's can come in the form of apartment style construction or townhome/rowhouse style, or really any style. What makes it a condo is the nature of the governing body and ownership structure for the premise on which the property sits.

[MKSheppard]

A lathe plaster wall is good for 100 years or more with minimal maintenance. It's a lot harder to dent than drywall as well as being more resistant to moisture. It stands up to wear & tear a hell of a lot better than drywall. The only downside is it takes a month for the plaster to set & cure, and during that time it can't be painted, plus it costs a shitload of money.

And also significantly harder to repair once it gets a hole knocked into it; and you can't get a very flat surface unless you're willing to pay big bucks for an experienced plasterer - good luck finding one of those these days.

Not to mention that you have cover the wall in boards to act as "anchors" for the plaster; which of course makes renovating the house significantly harder; try adding a light switch or something to a plaster wall, and you'll be covered in significant aggravation.

Best thing to do with plaster walls is to rip them down, toss them out in a huge dumpster, and replace with drywall (unless of course, the house is a historic landmark).

And it's not as durable or moisture resistant. It's why people end up falling through the roof when they're cleaning the eavestroughs.

Next you'll state the fucking obvious to those of us who have studied construction techniques.

Moisture = Bad.

Hence why you have such things like roofing systems and exterior cladding systems to keep the big bad nasty moisture out of the house.

It's obvious that if you have a major failure in either of those two systems in a house that allow TONS of moisture in, no matter what you're using, wood, plywood, drywall, plaster, or OSB, it will get messed up and require $$$$$$ to fix.

So moral of this story is, don't cheap on the roof or cladding.

But you're missing the point, there is no fucking way in hell a house built with 2x4 framing with chipboard sheets is going to be as strong or last as long as one that's built with concrete walls and nice big solid timber boards.

Too bad that mortise and tenon construction went out of favor in the nineteenth century in favor of balloon frame construction. Next you'll start going on rants on how engineered lumber is worse than natural lumber, despite it having higher structural strengths.....

As for aluminum wire, it can always be pulled out and replaced, it might cost a small fortune but it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than a wholesale replacement of the structural components of a home.

Except aluminum wire contracts and shrinks, and has a propensity to arc. Hello electrical fire. Hello burned down house!

In other words, don't talk smack about construction to someone who did study this subject intensively. But hey, go back to whining about how modern electronics suck and how vacuum tubes give a richer clearer sound.

[Edi]

I don't know how the apartment/condo system works over there in the US, but the Finnish system is substantially different than in many places.

Here apartment blocks are basically public limited companies governed by special rules, a special type that is called a housing plc in Finnish law. Each housing plc has a stock scheme that determines how the stock is distirbuted among the different apartments and when you buy an apartment, you do NOT buy the actual, physical part of the building. Instead, you buy the specifc stocks of the company that control that apartment.

Consequently, apartments are NOT real estate in Finnish law, but common property, more specifically stocks. Just so that there aren't any misunderstandings about this due to differing definitions of how things work.

[His Divine Shadow]

We're thinking of buying an apartment. Prices are finally going down and well, it seems to be a much better option to pay off a loan than a rent, with each payment you own the apartment a little bit more. And with a fixed rate you won't get raped on that incase shit hits the fan.

Buying an apartment? Are you sure you're not mixing up apartments with condominiums? Or are you talking about buying the entire building?

A condo is nothing more than an apartment by another name. It's basically a dodge around the: "apartments are for poor people" thing.

Language barrier in other words. So we're looking to find an apartment we can buy. We might still though consider a house in a smaller place outside Vaasa. Malax is a nice place about 20 km from the city, has several stores, a pub, police station all within walking distance, lots of new homes etc (my cousin is building his own house there).

It's a place in it's own right and not like an american suburb btw, it was there before the gasoline engine, it will be there after, much like most of Finland has been rural small villages and towns. Public transport between the city occurs at regular intervalls, increasing gas prices will probably only improve public transports economic viability anyway.

Lots of people here think peak oil will for some reason lead to people moving into the country side into self-sufficient old fashioned farmsteads and using telepresence, not sure about that myself but sure, if a bus started going once a day or so my parents could easily live without a car way out in nowhere and be mostly self-sufficient.