Hezbollah makes bid for Beirut.

[K. A. Pital]

That's the Shep response.

[[R_H]]

Clashes resume in north Lebanon

Heavy fighting has broken out again in the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli between opposition gunmen and government supporters, officials say.

Overnight, at least 13 people were killed as Hezbollah attacked forces of the pro-government Druze leader, Walid Jumblatt, in the mountains near Beirut.

The fighting in the Chouf mountains later died down after an agreement that the army would be deployed in the area.

The Arab League is to send a delegation in an attempt to end the conflict.

Its Secretary-General, Amr Moussa, said it wanted to save Lebanon.

"What is going on in Lebanon is unacceptable. We are very worried about this," he said. "We might succeed and we might not, but we have to try."

A date for the mission will be set after talks with the various Lebanese factions.

The sectarian violence, which broke out when Hezbollah gunmen fought pro-government forces in Beirut last week, is the worst since the end of the long-running civil war in 1990.

At least 47 people have been killed.

The BBC's Jim Muir says people are gripped by fear and wondering where the crisis goes from here.

Truce

Until the armed clashes resumed in Tripoli on Monday afternoon, Lebanon had been largely quiet following a weekend of fighting in the northern port city and the Chouf mountains.

Our correspondent says the skirmishes in the Druze stronghold were amongst the most bitter of the past five days and involved heavy weaponry for the first time.

Security officials have told the Reuters news agency that at least 36 people, including 14 Hezbollah fighters, were killed during Sunday. Eleven people were killed in the town of Chouweifat, officials told the Associated Press.

The fighting was brought to an end on Sunday by the decision of Mr Jumblatt to call a truce and hand control of the whole area over to the Lebanese army, which is now deploying troops there.

But reports from the area said that columns of Hezbollah fighters attacked late at night from the eastern Bekaa valley, on the other side of the mountains.

There were also reports of shooting incidents overnight in West Beirut, but the capital is said to be quiet following a similar arrangement with Hezbollah, which withdrew after crushing supporters of the government.

Activity and movement in the city are still at very low levels, our correspondent adds. Some main routes are still blocked, the international airport remains closed and getting in an out of Lebanon remains very difficult.

The fighting has pitched the Syrian-backed Shia Islamist movement Hezbollah and its allies against the pro-Western governing Sunni, Christian and Druze alliance.

Violence erupted after the government moved to shut down Hezbollah's telecoms network and remove the chief of security at Beirut's airport for allegedly sympathising with Hezbollah.

US destroyer

Arab foreign ministers meeting in Cairo have urged an immediate halt to the fighting in Lebanon and agreed to send a ministerial delegation to Beirut to try to mediate an end to the crisis.

According to reports in some Lebanese papers, one proposal being discussed is the idea that the current Western-backed government should resign and had over to a military council.

The army has emerged as the only factor preventing a complete collapse, and it is generally agreed that its commander, Gen Michel Suleiman, should be the next president.

It has been reported also that the American guided missile destroyer the USS Cole has crossed back into the eastern Mediterranean through the Suez Canal.

Our correspondent says that prompted a warning from sources in the Hezbollah-led opposition that any hint of US intervention would lead the opposition to abandon the few red lines they have been observing in their campaign to undermine the government.

For the past 16 months, Lebanon has been locked in political stalemate between the ruling coalition and Hezbollah-led opposition over the make-up of the government.

The Arab League delegation agreed on in Cairo will be led by Qatari Foreign Minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassem.

Ministers also decided to give what they describe as logistical support to the Lebanese army to help it maintain security.

An existing Arab League initiative aimed at facilitating the election of a Lebanese president has been deadlocked for months and Syria, a key Hezbollah ally, stayed away from Sunday's meeting.

Lebanon was plunged into civil war from 1975-90, drawing in Syria and Israel, the two regional powers.

[Davis 51]

I'd call for the whole region to be swallowed by the sea, but then I realise we'd be without a lot of oil. And probably it's seen as genocide by some, but apathy wins this round for me.

I know you are apathetic about the whole situation. Hearing this shit over and over and over again can make anyone apathetic. But please try to understand what I am about to say:

I. Have. Family. Over. There. Whom. I. Care. For. Dearly.

You get that? Lemme say it again.

I. Have. Family. Over. There. Whom. I. Care. For. Dearly.

When you make an offhand comment about calling for genocide, but holding off for the oil, you are effectively saying that the only reason you don't want to kill family of mine is that there is oil in the general region.

I'm not angry at you. I'm really not. I understand where your apathy comes from. Even I doubt there would be peace there for a long, long time.

But please, please try to refrain from saying stupid shit like "genocide is OK but we'd lose oil but I'm apathetic so that means I'm cool."

[Elfdart]

The IDF is 0-2 vs Hezbollah, numbnuts. Any particular reason why next time would be any different?

Last I checked, the Israelis were not militarily defeated, but rather could not win the information war, and the Israelis were forced to bow to international pressure. I could be wrong here, but that IS how I remember it.

How many times was the U.S. defeated on the battlefield by the Vietnamese? Who won the Vietnam War? The British won almost every battle during the Revolution, but I don't see people driving on the left side of the road -do you?

1-0-1 Actually.

1 Win - Kicked everyone's asses in Lebanon stayed there until Sharon decided to withdraw from there - Hizbollah spun it as a "victory", but we know the truth.

Indeed we do: Israel pasted the PLO, which was quite an achievement. They occupied South Lebanon and tried to create a quisling SLA buffer state there. But they were driven out by Hezbollah's guerilla camapign. Hezbos 1, IDF 0. Then we have Olmert's pooch screw -another defeat.

2 - Defeats

<Math isn't Yellow Rain Man's strong suit, so I corrected it for him.>

1- Draw

Says Ehud Olmert, the Black Knight of your demented little fairy tale.

: The Lebanon War of what 2007; or is it 2006? Israel pretty much shredded any attempts that Hizbollah tried on them; and really put a hurting on Hizbollah; but fumbled the entire process by slowly moving......moving.........moving forward so that by the time Olmert abdicated the war; the IDF hadn't reached the main hizbollah strongholds. So in effect, it was a draw for everyone

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Since when do winners makes excuses? Oh that's right, they don't. Escuses and irrelevant stats are the calling cards of the defeated. In other words:

SCOREBOARD!

By the way, about the only people the IDF and IAF "put a hurting on" were civilians, whom Olmert admitted were deliberately targeted.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I know you are apathetic about the whole situation. Hearing this shit over and over and over again can make anyone apathetic. But please try to understand what I am about to say:

I. Have. Family. Over. There. Whom. I. Care. For. Dearly.

You get that? Lemme say it again.

I. Have. Family. Over. There. Whom. I. Care. For. Dearly.

When you make an offhand comment about calling for genocide, but holding off for the oil, you are effectively saying that the only reason you don't want to kill family of mine is that there is oil in the general region.

I'm not angry at you. I'm really not. I understand where your apathy comes from. Even I doubt there would be peace there for a long, long time.

But please, please try to refrain from saying stupid shit like "genocide is OK but we'd lose oil but I'm apathetic so that means I'm cool."

I have family and friends over there too and were my dad's choices a little different, I'd be living there myself (well, Dubai more likely). But frankly, we only tolerate this kind of thing because of the one vital resource I mentioned. If not for that, there'd be no reason for anyone west of the Holy Land to give a flying fuck one way or another. Far worse things happen in Africa daily, and the world only ever scrutinises such events when they set a new record in depravity.

To be honest, there are times when the whole world imploding would give me less grief than listening to this bullshit go on ad nauseum. That's the human condition and it's sad we're like that.

[Davis 51]

I have family and friends over there too and were my dad's choices a little different, I'd be living there myself (well, Dubai more likely). But frankly, we only tolerate this kind of thing because of the one vital resource I mentioned. If not for that, there'd be no reason for anyone west of the Holy Land to give a flying fuck one way or another. Far worse things happen in Africa daily, and the world only ever scrutinises such events when they set a new record in depravity.

To be honest, there are times when the whole world imploding would give me less grief than listening to this bullshit go on ad nauseum. That's the human condition and it's sad we're like that.

It's the very fact that the only reason the world tolerates this is because of oil that is truly the sad statement of our times. That doesn't make it a good thing, or OK.

[Ace Pace]

[snip]

I think the only place where people think Israel won lebanon 2 is the United States. Lebanon 2 is wildly considered a failure in inside Israel, for good reason. What the hell makes anyone think it was a success?

[Coyote]

Is Syria Shia?

The population is predominantly Sunni, but power is held by the Alawite Shia Ba'ath party of the al-Assad clan.

[Coyote]

[snip]

I think the only place where people think Israel won lebanon 2 is the United States. Lebanon 2 is wildly considered a failure in inside Israel, for good reason. What the hell makes anyone think it was a success?

Israel has a bizarre sense of victory and defeat, one borne of the environment-- for Israel, the 1973 Yom Kippur War is seen as a tragedy and a sort of "defeat" even though in the USA it is seen as a stunning turn-around and a victorous defense against impacable odds.

But in the Middle East, there's the added dimension of perception and morale. If the Arabs come 'close', but still get stomped, it bolsters their morale and gets them ready for another round. Israel needs to not only beat them on the field, but utterly crush their hopes and dreams of ever fighting again in the near future in order for it to count.

Egypt celebrates the 1973 war because they almost won.

Modern war goes beyond hearts & minds on the ground- the perception of who won is as important as who actually won. Israel can militarily outdo Hezbollah, perhaps, but if the propaganda perception is that Hezbollah "fought hard" and "didn't run, but had to be defeated" and are perceived as "brave underdog defenders" then they "win" even if there's only one of them left.

[Korto]

1- Draw : The Lebanon War of what 2007; or is it 2006? Israel pretty much shredded any attempts that Hizbollah tried on them; and really put a hurting on Hizbollah; but fumbled the entire process by slowly moving......moving.........moving forward so that by the time Olmert abdicated the war; the IDF hadn't reached the main hizbollah strongholds. So in effect, it was a draw for everyone

Bullshit. Whether you win or lose is determined by your objectives.
* Israel's objectives (stated at start of attack) : Destroy Hezbollah
* Hezbollah's objectives (assumed) : Not be destroyed. Retain Israeli prisoners.
Hezbollah still exists, still has those prisoners, and due to surviving the attack has greatly enhanced political standing. Israel lost.

[Axis Kast]

Indeed we do: Israel pasted the PLO, which was quite an achievement. They occupied South Lebanon and tried to create a quisling SLA buffer state there. But they were driven out by Hezbollah's guerilla camapign. Hezbos 1, IDF 0. Then we have Olmert's pooch screw -another defeat.

To string Operations Stone of Wisdom and Peace for Galille into Barak's withdrawal nearly two decades later is spurious, to say the least. Similar to criticisms of Operation Ajax by those who claim that installing the Shah never really redounded to anyone's benefit in the West. The fact of the matter is that from 1953 until 1979, the United States and Great Britain had a powerful client-cum-ally in the Persian Gulf. That duration isn't half-bad. Israel's experience with the "Free Lebanon" of Saad Hadad and, later, Antoine Lahad, was similar, yielding strategic and economic benefit that can be described as "temporary" only if you bend over backwards and try to rely on historical, not real, measures of time.

Most of us will be able to agree that Israel suffered repeated strategic losses beginning in 1982, despite retaining tactical mastery over the battlefield that was lost only later (when they were fighting a predominately defensive war until 2000, or playing fast and hard, as in 2006).

It is your "quisling" description that bothers me, however. Not because it is not somewhat fitting. By any standard, Haddad, who instantly upon being assigned to his sector as a Lebanese Army officer, submitted a lengthy list of "needs" to the Israelis, and essentially took orders from his own Israeli general staff, was a puppet. But to accept the negative connotations of the term "quisling" when the Lebanese government was inoperative, his outfit had multiethnic composition, and Israel was the only real option, would be inappropriate.

[Elfdart]

But to accept the negative connotations of the term "quisling" when the Lebanese government was inoperative, his outfit had multiethnic composition, and Israel was the only real option, would be inappropriate.

Let's see:

A) Quisling, a Norwegian citizen, collaborates with a foreign invader against other Norwegians -collaboration that includes having fellow Norwegians killed. In exchange for turning traitor, he is made the de facto ruler of Norway.

B) Haddad, a Lebanese citizen, collaborates with a foreign invader against other Lebanese -collaboration that includes having fellow Lebanese killed. In exchange for turning traitor against Lebanon, he is made the de facto ruler of Phalangistan.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

The only difference I can see is that Quisling got his just desserts in front of a firing squad, while Haddad spent his last days in a sickbed and Lahad enjoys retirement in Tel Aviv.

[Axis Kast]

This is a long and complicated problem.

First, who was a Lebanese, Elfdart? After the early 1970s, the country was a largely fictitious construction, living a purely juridical existence courtesy of the international community.

Was a Christian Lebanese? The National Pact was an odious instrument. Like every other community in Lebanon, the Christians were divided into numerous factions best described as criminal syndicates. Most of the business of government, when it was in their hands, qualifies as rent-extraction. Many of the Maronites hoped to declare Unilateral Independence in the Mt. Lebanon region. It was just that their stomach for ethnic cleansing was never matched by their effectiveness in low-intensity combat.

Was a Sunni Lebanese? Many in the Sunni community were only too happy to perpetuate the National Pact. If it didn’t quite afford them the esteem they deserved from a purely demographic perspective, it at least kept them from becoming an electoral minority.

Was a Shiite Lebanese? The Shiites were systematically under-represented. In the south, many initially welcomed the Israelis as liberators, showering the forward columns of the Israel Defense Force with rice. Amal was no stranger to cooperation with the IDF, which often prevailed upon Haddad to deliver fire support missions when asked.

Was a Palestinian Lebanese? For years, Beirut’s army skirmished with the PLO, which operated as if much of the country was its own private preserve. There’s a reason that South Lebanon was known colloquially as “Fatahland.”

When Haddad arrived in South Lebanon, he was the sole representative of the national military, charged with securing a region that had long been a Free Fire zone, implicitly existing under an IDF security umbrella. The Lebanese Army simply did not venture into the region, having given up any pretense of authority in the face of PLO intransigence. Quite simply, South Lebanon was not under the authority of a government that can be called “sovereign” without sophistry.

Haddad appealed to Israel for essential materials to rebuild the South, and answered to them as the equivalent of a margrave. Without question, South Lebanon was a fief of Tel Aviv. Given that Beirut could not have done a superior job of quasi-government or, more important, local defense, however, that is hardly a scathing indictment.

Haddad was inept, cowardly, and egotistical. He was also, tragically, a partisan of Maronite interests, and committed or permitted outrages that ultimately sent Amal into an oppositional role (where at first it issued standing orders for its fighters to suffer disarmament by IDF troops). Only someone thoroughly uninitiated in the history of the region would rate his collaboration as unjustified, however. What, exactly, would you have him do? Suffer, for that is the mark of the righteous?