"Sweetiegate" for Obama (or, "LOL I has ben o

[Glocksman]

Maybe it's just my lower middle class upbringing and blue collar job environment, but I've literally heard 'sweetie' and 'hon' used thousands of times during my life by both genders.
God knows I don't get offended when the waitress at my local diner says 'What'll you have, honey?' or 'More coffee, sweetie?'

Similarly, I have female co-workers who'll use those terms when talking to me, and I know they're not coming on to me simply because they're usually married and at least 15 years older than I am.

Hell, my mother used those exact terms when talking to younger people of both sexes.
Was she a 'self-hating woman'?

The phrase 'much ado about nothing' comes to mind.

[Molyneux]

For an example, watch some Eddie Murphy movies he tends to make fun of it, probably since he was alive when the term was more widely used. Coming To America has a rather obvious example, which leaps immediately to mind.

Incidentally, in that film Eddie Murphy plays one of the greatest elderly Jewish man characters of all time. I still love that joke at the end.

For the "sweetie" remark...making mountains out of molehills certainly comes to mind. A bit informal, maybe, but sexist is certainly stretching it - I've been called "hon" or "sweetie" or even "darlin'" quite a few times by women, and I never took umbrage at it.

[Adrian Laguna]

As for black and Latina women, do you honestly think they don't know sexism exists? The fact that they have to put up with racist bullshit doesn't mean they don't have to put up with sexist bullshit, too. You act as if the existence of racism somehow negates sexism completely.

They probably have to put up with more sexist bullshit than white women. There's a strong undercurrent of sexism in various elements of "Black culture", and many Latinos have a thing for being "macho", though it varies by country of origin and socio-economic status.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Ok, when is it gonna be legal for me to punch politically correct assholes in the neck? I call women "sweet" and "honey" all the time. Nothing sexsist about it, it's pretty much the same as calling guys "dude" and "man".

The one's that get all butthurt about it I switch to addressing them as "cupcake" and "kitten". If they think I'm being an evil male oppressor for being nice and saying "sweety", fuck them, they can eat a big fucking can of condescending asshole.

The PRFY parliament/tittybar ratified that law five days ago. Neck-punch away, sir!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

To clarify:

"Sweetie" is somewhat patronizing to me; Hon, for whatever reason, isn't, nor is Babe. That may be a west-coast thing; stuff like this is very regional. Honey--depends very much on the circumstances. Sweetie is somewhat patronizing because to me it's something you use exclusively with 2 - 10 year old girls..

Yes, exclusively. I've actually never had anyone call me that before; probably, again, it's a regional thing. It immediately sounded patronizing to me, but "Babe" wouldn't have. That's probably the PacNorWester in me talking? I'm not sure, but these affectations can be very regionally dependent, especially in how they're taken. There's a very considerable amount of cultural difference between the regions in the United States--I notice it comes up a lot in food. Amy told me this southern joke once about how "yankees like their tomatoes cooked and their greens raw." I just peered at her and answered, "Yes, that's the way they should be eaten" (the only green vegetables I can stand cooked are cabbage and bell peppers, fullstop).

[Raw Shark]

And for the record, on the other side of the coin, yes "oily" is used as a slur against Blacks, if archaically. It's usually used to refer to what is believed to be "oily Black hair" usually as a reference to so-called "Jerry Curl" and other such products, and while it's an insult old as dust (last time i heard it was in a movie made in 1979) it IS an offensive remark. The implication is that he uses this Jerry Curl stuff on his hair, thus rendering it oily or "slimy". The "joke" is usually that it leaves "stains" on stuff, grease spots and such. For an example, watch some Eddie Murphy movies he tends to make fun of it, probably since he was alive when the term was more widely used. Coming To America has a rather obvious example, which leaps immediately to mind.

That's fascinating. Could you suggest another Eddie Murphy movie in which this comes up besides the one in which he was mocking the vanity of specific characters who became wealthy manufacturing the hair product for my continuing research? ;)

[Duckie]

To clarify:

"Sweetie" is somewhat patronizing to me; Hon, for whatever reason, isn't, nor is Babe. That may be a west-coast thing; stuff like this is very regional. Honey--depends very much on the circumstances. Sweetie is somewhat patronizing because to me it's something you use exclusively with 2 - 10 year old girls..

Yes, exclusively. I've actually never had anyone call me that before; probably, again, it's a regional thing. It immediately sounded patronizing to me, but "Babe" wouldn't have. That's probably the PacNorWester in me talking? I'm not sure, but these affectations can be very regionally dependent, especially in how they're taken. There's a very considerable amount of cultural difference between the regions in the United States--I notice it comes up a lot in food. Amy told me this southern joke once about how "yankees like their tomatoes cooked and their greens raw." I just peered at her and answered, "Yes, that's the way they should be eaten" (the only green vegetables I can stand cooked are cabbage and bell peppers, fullstop).

Indeed, it's almost certainly that. I laughed aloud when I read this article, because I've been in the south for a few years and "Sweetie" is a term that can be used as follows:

Woman to Younger Boy
Woman to Other Woman
Man to Woman
Man to Younger Boy

So the only time it would sound alien to someone in the south is if Obama were talking to another adult male.

Now, I am not a southerner, and so "Sweetie" sounds alien to mine ears as well, but I at least understand where it comes from. And it'd only be alien in the North because we're all surly and don't ever use terms of affection for anyone. ^_^

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I hate absolutely hate when people call me sweetie, hon', sugar or anything else UNLESS they know my intimately and are a friend at which point they address me by name. I am a sir and if I were younger you wouldn't need to say anything. Or you don't have to say anything at all. Just don't call me sweetie.

[Feil]

Welcome to America. We have dialects. Yes, it's annoying and out of its cultural context it's offensive; and yes the dialect is indicative of underlying sexism, but as long as it's confined to "incidents" which he recognizes as a "bad habit", there's no problem with it. It's indicative of just how fucking spotless the man is that people have to reach so far to find some dirt on him.

[Chardok]

If Obama was a southern woman, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Ridiculous.

[Imperial Overlord]

My sainted grandmother fairly often used "sweetie" when talking to people she knew. Slightly annoying, but entirely gender and age neutral coming from her. I wouldn't use it and I didn't like it, but I never got upset over it.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

To clarify:

"Sweetie" is somewhat patronizing to me; Hon, for whatever reason, isn't, nor is Babe. That may be a west-coast thing; stuff like this is very regional. Honey--depends very much on the circumstances. Sweetie is somewhat patronizing because to me it's something you use exclusively with 2 - 10 year old girls..

Yes, exclusively. I've actually never had anyone call me that before; probably, again, it's a regional thing. It immediately sounded patronizing to me, but "Babe" wouldn't have. That's probably the PacNorWester in me talking? I'm not sure, but these affectations can be very regionally dependent, especially in how they're taken. There's a very considerable amount of cultural difference between the regions in the United States--I notice it comes up a lot in food. Amy told me this southern joke once about how "yankees like their tomatoes cooked and their greens raw." I just peered at her and answered, "Yes, that's the way they should be eaten" (the only green vegetables I can stand cooked are cabbage and bell peppers, fullstop).

Just so I know for future reference in case I ever take a trip back out in that direction:

What is the judgment on 'Sweetheart' and 'Beautiful', as that is what I most often find myself calling people I know if I feel like using their names seems a bit too redundant at the moment.

[Robert Treder]

Just for my two cents, the only times I've ever heard "sweetie" used has been by old white women. That might be reason enough for Obama to stop saying it, but I've never considered it sexist (especially because I've never heard anybody saying it to a female).

But I'm in California, so that pretty much means anybody saying "sweetie" is some kind of transplant. And who knows what these midwesterners are saying; they're probably all trying to steal our blood, I say hang them all.

[Robert Treder]

Oh and if I'm talking to or about somebody I don't know personally, I'll say sir, ma'am, bro, homeboy, homegirl, girl, caballero, or 'my friend'. Just depends on the situation.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

To clarify:

"Sweetie" is somewhat patronizing to me; Hon, for whatever reason, isn't, nor is Babe. That may be a west-coast thing; stuff like this is very regional. Honey--depends very much on the circumstances. Sweetie is somewhat patronizing because to me it's something you use exclusively with 2 - 10 year old girls..

Yes, exclusively. I've actually never had anyone call me that before; probably, again, it's a regional thing. It immediately sounded patronizing to me, but "Babe" wouldn't have. That's probably the PacNorWester in me talking? I'm not sure, but these affectations can be very regionally dependent, especially in how they're taken. There's a very considerable amount of cultural difference between the regions in the United States--I notice it comes up a lot in food. Amy told me this southern joke once about how "yankees like their tomatoes cooked and their greens raw." I just peered at her and answered, "Yes, that's the way they should be eaten" (the only green vegetables I can stand cooked are cabbage and bell peppers, fullstop).

Just so I know for future reference in case I ever take a trip back out in that direction:

What is the judgment on 'Sweetheart' and 'Beautiful', as that is what I most often find myself calling people I know if I feel like using their names seems a bit too redundant at the moment.

Sweetheart is a term a woman can use on a man in a coy fashion--never heard it used anyway else. "Hey Beautiful" or some variation on that immediately pegs you as a Pacific Coast Redneck, though is not offensive as such to most people. Unless you hate Rednecks. Babe--that's what I use with most my close female friends and a few of the guys. It's the most utterly normal thing to call someone in the world, I don't think twice about it.

[Edi]

Welcome to America. We have dialects. Yes, it's annoying and out of its cultural context it's offensive; and yes the dialect is indicative of underlying sexism, but as long as it's confined to "incidents" which he recognizes as a "bad habit", there's no problem with it. It's indicative of just how fucking spotless the man is that people have to reach so far to find some dirt on him.

Quoted for truth. From a foreigner's perspective, this all seems somewhat overblown in the sense that it's a manufactured scandal.

On the other hand, Metatwaddle cuts right to the heart of the matter as usual. Sexism is alive and well all over the world, so knowing the cultural context of what you can use and where is important if you want to avoid needless aggravation. While I know English well enough to think natively in nit without requiring any translation, I don't know enough of cultural contexts wrt dialects to go around and assume I can use anything but neutral titles when talking to someone unless I know them.

I will call women 'honey' if I happen to know them well enough and I know it's okay between us, such as I do with Zaia, but generally I don't. For example, of the ladies at SDnet, she's the only one. I've known ravencrow for near enough ten years and she's a very close friend, but I either call her by her name or a nickname she used when I got to know her. For another example, the mere idea of me calling Broomstick by anything but her handle is just ludicrous. We're friends, but can anyone here imagine me calling her 'honey'? *crickets* Didn't think so...

As far as I'm concerned, the reverse doesn't apply, though. I do not mind at all if a woman calls me 'honey', 'sweetie' or some other form of endearment, because either it's culturally acceptable or it indicates they are comfortable enough with me to call me that. And if it's the case of the latter, chances are that I'll be returning the favor with her approval.

[Punarbhava]

So much time wasted talking about what amounts to almost nothing...

I hate Hillary and Hillary supporters, specifically due to bullshit like this. HillBill may be a smart beehive, but it's an awfully slimy one, and I can't tolerate it anymore.

When she loses the election, I hope someone points back to moments like this and informs both her and all other politicians that it's largely due to this sort of inane pandering to the stupid and straw-grasping that we're all fed up with.

Fuck.

[Dark Hellion]

Here in Illinois, the word sweetie is pretty much a meaningless friendly word. I get called sweetie at least half a dozen times at work, and while I don't like using the word for most anyone beyond my girlfriend, I occasionally sprinkle it into my banter for people I am friendly with.

Really, the pretense that a word choice is a real issue in the problems of basic misogyny is utter bullshit, and is the kind of asinine feminism that doesn't help the cause of equality. Frankly, I think women are beautiful and wonderful and I desire my utmost to respect them. However, I doubt that most women have any clue of what they actually expect of respectful treatment. So nitpicks about words like sweetie replace the actual issues of Machismo attitudes, the poor mate selection that many teenage girls have, the self-esteem and self-confidence issues that seem to plague women that as a man I am helpless to understand and all I can do is assure you of how beautiful and wonderful you are and how shitty the world would be without you. This is not some battle that women are fighting all alone against men, who are out specifically to oppress you, its a dynamic cultural issue that has persisted for thousand of years. Its a hard fight, and you might have to lose battles over stupid shit like the word sweetie to win the war.

[Balrog]

But I'm in California, so that pretty much means anybody saying "sweetie" is some kind of transplant. And who knows what these midwesterners are saying; they're probably all trying to steal our blood, I say hang them all.

But we must have your precious bodily fluids....

*ahem* Anyways, I've heard "sweetie" and similar words used all the time, from both men and women to each other. Usually in a friendly informal setting. Perhaps it was inappropriate in this case, but people slip up from time to time. It's not like he "forgot" that his visit to Kosovo didn't involve snipers and running for his life off the tarmac.

[darthdavid]

I'm from Central New York and no one says sweetie up here except maybe as a pet name or something. But it wouldn't be offensive or demeaning either. You might get a few raised eyebrows (or a lot of raised eyebrows depending on just who you're talking to) but I doubt you'd have anyone flipping out over it...