How much longer can they keep the lid on?

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Gerald Tarrant
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How much longer can they keep the lid on?

Post by Gerald Tarrant »

Not sure if this is News and Politics, or Science and Morality. (Given the intertwined nature of Religion and Government in the Middle East it might be both).

I saw a link to this that labeled this the West's "Cultural Weapons of Mass Destruction". It's just young Saudi men trying to do what young men do everywhere, meet women.
While Katherine Zoepf was reporting on the lives of young women in Saudi Arabia recently, she managed to find a way to get a glimpse of the lives of young men in the Kingdom as well. (Elsewhere on this blog today, Ms. Zoepf is taking questions about love and romance in Saudi Arabia.)

I hadn’t met the boys before, but it was easy to pick them out: a half-dozen Saudi 18- and 19-year-olds shifting uncomfortably on two brocade sofas in the lobby of one of Riyadh’s grandest hotels, Al Faisaliah. The boys looked ill at ease among the marble pillars and elaborate flower arrangements, yet they’d insisted on meeting here. The Saudi religious police were unlikely to raid a luxury hotel, the boys felt, and since the evening activity we’d planned was illegal, it seemed best to take precautions.

Saudi society is strictly segregated along gender lines, and after several weeks spent interviewing Saudi teenage girls, I’d become very curious about life on the other side of the gender divide. I’d seen groups of young Saudi men out “numbering” - chasing cars containing young girls and trying to give the girls their phone numbers via Bluetooth, or by holding written phone numbers up to their car windows. When a Saudi girl I knew told me that her friend’s older brother would be willing to take me out numbering with his friends, I leaped at the chance.

The boys had brought clothes for me to wear over my abaya, and in a secluded corner of the hotel parking lot, we experimented with my disguise. Thamer, a 19-year-old political science student, handed me a knitted cap, and I stuffed my ponytail up underneath it. I zipped a hooded sweatshirt belonging to Mohamed, another of the boys, up over my billowing black cloak, and peered at my reflection in the tinted glass of Thamer’s S.U.V.

“Could I pass for a boy?” I asked. The black skirt of my abaya still trailed the floor, but from the waist up I felt pretty pleased with the effect.

Fahad, the most talkative of the boys, snorted.

“No,” he said. “But I think that’s as good as we’re going to do. We’re going to put you in the middle seat, and if you see someone in another car staring, turn slowly away.”

We piled into the S.U.V., and Thamer clicked through a rap mix CD to find Akon’s “Smack That,” to set the right mood for an evening of numbering. The boys bobbed their heads in time to the music.

“Wanna jump up in my Lamborghini Gallardo/Maybe go to my place and just kick it, like Taebo?” Akon sang.

In reality, getting a girl to go anywhere with him, let alone to “kick it,” is a near impossibility, Fahad explained. For most young Saudi men, a night of numbering is simply a night driving around with friends, listening to music, chasing cars containing black-draped figures that could just as easily be old women as young girls. Since numbering is considered harassment, detention by the religious police is an ever-present possibility.

We turned onto Thalia Street, a prime spot for numbering because of its many restaurants.

“There! There in the GMC!” Mohamed shouted. “Girls!”

Through the tinted windows in the back of the GMC, I could make out three indistinct black shapes. Thamer stepped on the gas, but a white Mercedes S-class containing four young Saudi men edged him out. The Mercedes pulled alongside the GMC, and the two young men in the back seat waved pieces of cardboard with phone numbers written on them.

“They beat us,” Fahad complained, as Thamer tried to pull up behind the GMC. “And they have a hotter car.”

I looked around. We were surrounded by several other cars, all containing young men and all trying to get the attention of the figures in the GMC, while simultaneously trying to edge each other off the road at high speed.

“Isn’t this getting a bit dangerous?” I asked.

“Yeah,” said Fahad. “Sometimes the girls get really scared, there are so many cars chasing them. Sometimes they’re in their car, crying and screaming for us to go away. It’s fun to make girls angry.”

A phone number written out on a piece of cardboard is “the classic approach,” Fahad said, but most of the time he and his friends use Bluetooth to try to send their phone numbers directly to the cell phones of girls in the vicinity. Usually this means chasing cars containing women, but sometimes Fahad and his friends drive past the entrances of shopping malls where women wait for their drivers. It’s not easy to tell which of the black-shrouded shapes might be young women, Fahad admitted, but there are a few tricks.

“You look at the style of the abaya, the way she holds her bag,” Fahad explained. “See that one there, how thin she is, and how carefully she’s covered up her face?”

He pointed out a slight figure with a pastel handbag. Sure enough, a pair of girlish-looking sneakers were just visible beneath the hem of her abaya.

“I’d say that maybe 3 out of 10 nights of numbering,we have some success,” Fahad explained.

“You mean that 3 out of 10 nights you get a girl to talk to you?” I asked.

“No, no,” Fahad laughed. “Maybe 3 out of 10 nights we get one phone number. Getting a girl to actually talk to you on the phone is much rarer. But it happens, so we’re always hoping.”
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Gutsy for the NYTimes reporter to publish this, she's probably going to have trouble re-entering the Kingdom, and she may face some legal crap if she hasn't already left.

I couldn't find an official news source link to it, but there was an incident a few years ago where Saudi Religious Police (thugs) prevented girls from leaving a burning school building because they weren't properly veiled, they also beat firefighters who tried to enter.

And then there's this older story.
A top Iranian judiciary official warned Monday against the "destructive" cultural and social consequences of importing Barbie dolls and other Western toys.

In the latest salvo in a more than decade-old government campaign against Barbie, Prosecutor General Ghorban Ali Dori Najafabadi said in an official letter to Vice President Parviz Davoudi that the doll and other Western toys are a "danger" that need to be stopped.

"The irregular importation of such toys, which unfortunately arrive through unofficial sources and smuggling, is destructive culturally and a social danger," said the letter, a copy of which was made available to The Associated Press.

Iranian markets have been inundated with smuggled Western toys in recent years partly due to a dramatic rise in purchasing power as a result of increased oil revenues.

While importing the toys is not necessarily illegal, it is discouraged by a government that seeks to protect Iranians from what it calls the negative effects of Western culture.

Najafabadi said the increasing visibility of Western dolls has alarmed authorities and they are considering intervening.

"The displays of personalities such as Barbie, Batman, Spiderman and Harry Potter ... as well as the irregular importation of unsanctioned computer games and movies are all warning bells to the officials in the cultural arena," his letter said.

Najafabadi said Iran is the world's third biggest importer of toys and warned that smuggled imports pose a threat to the "identity" of the new generation.

"Undoubtedly, the personality and identity of the new generation and our children, as a result of unrestricted importation of toys, has been put at risk and caused irreparable damages," he said.

Mattel Inc., the maker of Barbie, had no immediate comment on the Iranian letter.

Barbie is sold wearing swimsuits and miniskirts in a society where women must wear head scarves in public and men and women are not allowed to swim together.

In 1996, the head of a government-backed children's agency called Barbie a "Trojan horse" sneaking in Western influences such as makeup and revealing clothes.

Authorities launched a campaign of confiscating Barbies from toy shops in 2002, denouncing the un-Islamic sensibilities of the iconic American doll. But the campaign was eventually dropped.

Also in 2002, Iran introduced its own competing dolls — the twins Dara and Sara — who were designed to promote traditional values with their modest clothing and pro-family stories. But the dolls proved unable to stem the Barbie tide.
Link

I realize these are different countries, regimes, and sects, but I think the problems they face are the same. How can they enforce an Anti-Western mindset? And I think they're looking at this as a very nasty slippery slope.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

It's really going to get bad when the oil runs out and they end up having to rejoin the Third World.
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Post by Kanastrous »

Patrick Degan wrote:It's really going to get bad when the oil runs out and they end up having to rejoin the Third World.
By that time - if they're reasonably provident - they will be so well-invested in real-estate, industry, transport, horse-breeding, and whatever else they invest their oil money in, that the core wealthy will likely stay just as wealthy...
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Patrick Degan wrote:It's really going to get bad when the oil runs out and they end up having to rejoin the Third World.
*snort*
They wish they could "rejoin" the Third World. They'll be lucky if their decline stops at the Middle Ages.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Kanastrous wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:It's really going to get bad when the oil runs out and they end up having to rejoin the Third World.
By that time - if they're reasonably provident - they will be so well-invested in real-estate, industry, transport, horse-breeding, and whatever else they invest their oil money in, that the core wealthy will likely stay just as wealthy...
That won't help the vast majority of "them", ie- the people living in that country.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Kanastrous wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:It's really going to get bad when the oil runs out and they end up having to rejoin the Third World.
By that time - if they're reasonably provident - they will be so well-invested in real-estate, industry, transport, horse-breeding, and whatever else they invest their oil money in, that the core wealthy will likely stay just as wealthy...
Even the oil money has a hard time stretching to cover the expense of thousands of princes. It also fuels all of their economy, like the construction of everything by Pakistani guest workers. Without it, their won't be enough of an economy left to stop a hard crash. They'll still have a shitload of money invested in the US, but you that'll just provide a soft landing for the princes. Everyone else will be fucked and the whole country will be toast.
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Re: How much longer can they keep the lid on?

Post by Coalition »

Gerald Tarrant wrote:I couldn't find an official news source link to it, but there was an incident a few years ago where Saudi Religious Police (thugs) prevented girls from leaving a burning school building because they weren't properly veiled, they also beat firefighters who tried to enter.
Hmm, a firefighter, having access to a high-pressure hose with a high-quality nozzle designed to be very accurate and intuitive to use, and someone blocks the path to save a building?

I'd laugh if the firefighters had turned the hoses on the religious police.
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Post by Sarevok »

Darth Wong wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:It's really going to get bad when the oil runs out and they end up having to rejoin the Third World.
By that time - if they're reasonably provident - they will be so well-invested in real-estate, industry, transport, horse-breeding, and whatever else they invest their oil money in, that the core wealthy will likely stay just as wealthy...
That won't help the vast majority of "them", ie- the people living in that country.
The vast majority of them includes south asian wage slaves. There are millions of them in the Saudi kingdom and they could be a potent force if they ever rise up. No one has suggested it before but a civil war between foreign labor that built and runs KSA today and the patrician like Arab ruling class might be plausible.
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Post by PeZook »

On another note, how come the Saudis haven't died out yet?

Come on. Finding a life partner is hard enough if a country is, you know...not insane :D
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

PeZook wrote:On another note, how come the Saudis haven't died out yet?

Come on. Finding a life partner is hard enough if a country is, you know...not insane :D
A large amount of men not having women, and a men having massive amounts of women is only a problem if the elite men are too tired or low on resources (cash or "liquid", if you know what I mean ;)) to provide for the horde of progeny.

It's the same with the Bedouin, albeit to a far lower case due to it being harder for them to circumvent Israeli law as blatantly (They might have multiple wives, especially in the villages, but not harems of 9 or more women) as what is legal abroad. (And lower economic differences).
Both societies also have exceedingly high birth rates and massive amounts of the population under the age of 18 (In many Arab countries more than half the population is under 18, Egypt or Lebanon once had a third under 14 as I vaguely recall). They must be doing "something" right. (Or doing it wrong, but very frequently).
Of course, large amounts of young men without wives is a very, very bad formula for a stable society.
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Post by xerex »

PeZook wrote:On another note, how come the Saudis haven't died out yet?

Come on. Finding a life partner is hard enough if a country is, you know...not insane :D
well arranged marriages take care of the procreation bit.....

.but having a large number of teenagers who have knowledge of Western sexual culture (eg Akon cds) cant be good for maintaing the status quo of arranged marrieages and virginity before marriage.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

xerex wrote:but having a large number of teenagers who have knowledge of Western sexual culture (eg Akon cds) cant be good for maintaing the status quo of arranged marrieages and virginity before marriage.
I don't think knowledge of Western sexual culture is a problem, I think the fact that most humans are ready to fuck at 14-16 is the problem.
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Post by Gerald Tarrant »

Never underestimate religious ignorance.
Doctors at the Lübeck campus of the University Clinic of Schleswig-Holstein (search) in northern Germany described the case in a medical bulletin, according to Ananova.com.

After eight years of marriage, the 36-year-old man and his 30-year-old wife went to the campus' fertility clinic to figure out what was wrong.

Doctors gave them a battery of tests and were baffled — both husband and wife were healthily fertile.

Then came the important question.

"When we asked them how often they had had sex," said a clinic spokesman, "they looked blank, and said: 'What do you mean?'"

He went on to explain that each of the pair had been brought up extremely religiously and had never heard of the birds and the bees.

"We are not talking retarded people here," the clinic spokesman said. The two "were simply unaware, after eight years of marriage, of the physical requirements necessary to procreate."

The man and wife are now being given sexual therapy. The clinic is trying to find out if there are other couples in the area who could use a refresher course in human biology.
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

Gerald Tarrant wrote:Never underestimate religious ignorance.
Doctors at the Lübeck campus of the University Clinic of Schleswig-Holstein (search) in northern Germany described the case in a medical bulletin, according to Ananova.com.

After eight years of marriage, the 36-year-old man and his 30-year-old wife went to the campus' fertility clinic to figure out what was wrong.

Doctors gave them a battery of tests and were baffled — both husband and wife were healthily fertile.

Then came the important question.

"When we asked them how often they had had sex," said a clinic spokesman, "they looked blank, and said: 'What do you mean?'"

He went on to explain that each of the pair had been brought up extremely religiously and had never heard of the birds and the bees.

"We are not talking retarded people here," the clinic spokesman said. The two "were simply unaware, after eight years of marriage, of the physical requirements necessary to procreate."

The man and wife are now being given sexual therapy. The clinic is trying to find out if there are other couples in the area who could use a refresher course in human biology.
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Holy shit. Were they so religiuos that they never kissed? I mean surely, even if no one taught you about that kind of stuff, you would sooner or later experiment with your WIFE and you know, find out how to do it. Even it if is clumsy and messy, but then again, what sex isnt?

But then again, were they taught that feeling happy in the pants was wrong or something?
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Post by Andrew_Fireborn »

Wow... a Mad TV sketch come to life... *sigh* I suppose that is further support for Rule One though...

Still, I think it would have been amusing to have film of the therapy room. At least teh first couple visits. >_> Images of all the "Sex makes babies?!?" image macros have lead to this thought...
Darth Ruinus wrote:But then again, were they taught that feeling happy in the pants was wrong or something?
Probably...
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Re: How much longer can they keep the lid on?

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Coalition wrote:
Gerald Tarrant wrote:I couldn't find an official news source link to it, but there was an incident a few years ago where Saudi Religious Police (thugs) prevented girls from leaving a burning school building because they weren't properly veiled, they also beat firefighters who tried to enter.
Hmm, a firefighter, having access to a high-pressure hose with a high-quality nozzle designed to be very accurate and intuitive to use, and someone blocks the path to save a building?

I'd laugh if the firefighters had turned the hoses on the religious police.
Are you a sadist? Because I doubt it'd take much for a sadistic Islamist fucker like them to meet firehoses with bullets.
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Re: How much longer can they keep the lid on?

Post by Coalition »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:
Coalition wrote: I'd laugh if the firefighters had turned the hoses on the religious police.
Are you a sadist? Because I doubt it'd take much for a sadistic Islamist fucker like them to meet firehoses with bullets.
I was thinking that using a mostly non-lethal weapon to get them out of the way would be appropriate for their job, to save lives and stop the fire.

If the religious police pull weapons, that could mean the firefighters would have to be escorted by police for protection from the religious police. I'll admit I don't know enough about what effect that would have on the country.
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Post by Gerald Tarrant »

The problem is that the religious police are an organ of the government. Link. They're not regular police, in that they don't do anything useful like shooting murderers or solving real crimes, but the regular police enforce the actions of the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (I believe that's what the Taliban called their version of religious police as well, which isn't surprising considering the Taliban Wahhabist doctrine was a Saudi export).
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