Polygamist Sect Kids "Wrongly Seized"

[Falkenhayn]

MSNBC

Court: Texas wrongly seized sect children
Appeals court ruling applies to 48 mothers from polygamist sect
MSNBC News Services
updated 2:14 p.m. ET, Thurs., May. 22, 2008

SAN ANGELO, Texas - A state appellate court ruled Thursday that child welfare officials had no right to seize hundreds of children from a polygamist sect's ranch on April 3.

It was unclear how many children were affected by the ruling. The state took 464 children into custody, but Thursday's ruling directly applied to the children of 48 sect mothers represented by the Texas Rio Grande Legal Aide, said Cynthia Martinez of the agency.

The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the grounds for removing the children were "legally and factually insufficient" under Texas law. The ruling did not immediately order the return of the children.

Child welfare officials removed the children on the grounds that the sect pushed underage girls into marriage and sex and trained boys to become future perpetrators.

The appellate court ruled that a chaotic hearing held last month did not demonstrate the children were in any immediate danger, the only measure of taking children from their homes without court proceedings.

Earlier Thursday, attorneys for Child Protective Services said 15 of the 31 mothers authorities put in foster care as children have now been declared adults. One is 27, they said.

Another girl listed as an underage mother is 14, but the state has conceded she is not pregnant and does not have a child.

The underage mothers had been cited as evidence that the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints committed widespread sexual abuse of girls.

In Texas, girls who are younger than 17 generally cannot consent to sex with adult men.

No one has been arrested or charged in the case.

The FLDS, which teaches polygamy brings glorification in heaven, broke away from the mainline Mormon church, which disavowed polygamy more than a century ago.

Sect leader Warren Jeffs, who is revered as a prophet, has been sentenced to prison in Utah for being an accomplice to rape in arranging a marriage of a 14-year-old follower to her 19-year-old cousin. He is awaiting trial in Arizona, where he is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct.

Jeffs' lawyers want the incest counts dropped, arguing that prosecutors in Mohave County cannot pursue those charges along with the sexual conduct counts. A judge is considering the request.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

© 2008 MSNBC Interactive

[wautd]

Bravo Texas. Just when I thought you couldn't sink any lower you prove me wrong once more

[cosmicalstorm]

Well if everything was started by a phony phonecall then thats a fair ruling, but it dosent mean they should send all the children back and stop the investigations regarding the underaged children being married away and knocked up.

[Knife]

All this does is make them do it the hard way, Texas that is. They should be going after the organization itself. Seize assets, property and such and prosecuting the males for rape.

[Kanastrous]

Hell, that's what we should have done to the Catholic Church in this country, the instant it was demonstrated that there was a deliberate cover-up of abuse approved and perpetrated by its administrators.

But that sort of thing won't happen.

After all, we respect religion in this country. Certainly more than the mere welfare or safety of children.

[RedImperator]

Bravo Texas. Just when I thought you couldn't sink any lower you prove me wrong once more

Or, you know, the judge has to abide by state law when making her rulings, and Texas Child Protective Services bungled the case.

[darthbob88]

Bravo Texas. Just when I thought you couldn't sink any lower you prove me wrong once more

Or, you know, the judge has to abide by state law when making her rulings, and Texas Child Protective Services bungled the case.

The law is irrelevant; all that matters is that the courts have ruled that these children need to go back to their parents. [/sarcasm]

Dammit, people, this is just going to mean more delays before this sect is shut down. Was it too much work to take the time and get your paperwork done correctly?

[FSTargetDrone]

Remember that other FLDS group in Canada? The Attorney General in British Columbia is looking to make some arrests there. Here's an excerpt from a longish May 14th story about it:

British Columbia's Attorney General Wally Oppal told The Associated Press he plans to arrest someone on a polygamy charge or ask the courts to weigh in on Bountiful's legal standing within the month.

"Something must be done," he said. "I personally feel, and our government feels, that it would be inappropriate to do nothing."

Bountiful, just north of the U.S. border, is already splintered: some follow Jeffs, others follow his excommunicated former bishop Winston Blackmore. Even though many are related or have same last name, members of the two groups are not allowed to talk with each other.
. . .

Bountiful residents have reason to worry: Just like in Texas, polygamy is illegal in Canada.

But instead of responding to a direct complaint of sexual abuse, Oppal would be reacting to two decades of unanswered pressure that the Canadian government do something about these families who practice plural marriages with impunity.

The pressure has been growing since the Texas raid. A national poll last month found nearly two-thirds of Canadians want Bountiful residents who break the law by practicing polygamy to be prosecuted.

But two Canadian laws stand in contradiction: Polygamy is banned, and religious freedoms are firmly protected.

In repeated investigations, the more troubling questions of sexual abuse, human trafficking and forced marriages also have been investigated. As part of a three-year review launched in 2004, detectives spent three months in the community. No charges were brought, but the legal age of sexual consent in Canada increased to 16 from 14 on May 1.

"To me it is so offensive that nothing's been done," said Daphne Branham, who has published a book about Canada's polygamous renegade Mormon sect. "Everything about the community is so unbelievable, from the fact that we fund the schools, we provide their health care. Our doctors and nurses - they see the fathers in the hospital, they sign the birth certificates - everyone knows what's going on out there."

[Superman]

I find it hard to have a problem with children seized from a polygamist cult. But I agree, the problem is the cult itself.

[Korto]

I find it hard to have a problem with children seized from a polygamist cult. But I agree, the problem is the cult itself.

What exactly do you find wrong with polygamy? Agreed, it often seems to co-exist with underage and/or forced marriages (both therefore rape), which doesn't help its image, but underage and/or forced marriage in itself is criminal and immoral. Polygamy is red herring in such cases.
Polygamy between informed and consenting adults strikes me as being benign and nobody's business but their own.

And yes, if the removal of the children was illegal, if the children are not in any immediate danger, then they do have to return the children and then do their jobs fucking properly. If the authorities aren't going to obey the law, why the hell should anyone else?

[K. A. Pital]

What exactly do you find wrong with polygamy?

Factually proven to be abusive in an overwhelming majority of cases, this sect included.

[darthdavid]

What exactly do you find wrong with polygamy?

Factually proven to be abusive in an overwhelming majority of cases, this sect included.

The overwhelming majority of rape is carried out by heterosexual men. Therefore we should ban heterosexual intercourse between consenting adults...
I have used the same logic as you. Just because a benign lifestyle choice often accompanies a harmful behavior is no reason to ban said lifestyle choice...

[FSTargetDrone]

What exactly do you find wrong with polygamy? Agreed, it often seems to co-exist with underage and/or forced marriages (both therefore rape), which doesn't help its image, but underage and/or forced marriage in itself is criminal and immoral. Polygamy is red herring in such cases.
Polygamy between informed and consenting adults strikes me as being benign and nobody's business but their own.

And yes, if the removal of the children was illegal, if the children are not in any immediate danger, then they do have to return the children and then do their jobs fucking properly. If the authorities aren't going to obey the law, why the hell should anyone else?

In this case, I have my doubts that the adult women are making the best choice and I wonder if they are "consenting" with a clear mind, thinking about their situation in a rational way. A lot of these people who have grown up in this organization may not know any other way of life. It's difficult for me to find fault with the women (and perhaps some of the men) for being so outspoken that the conditions in that compound are anything other than normal and healthy.

It's one thing to have a Polyamorous relationship. That may be right for some people. But this seems practically institutionalized, with these FLDS people.

All that aside, polygamy is illegal in the USA.

[bobalot]

I have never understood how a country as rich and powerful as America, can have such frankly ridiculous things happen there.

You people seem to have a disproportionate amount of respect for religion over everything else.

[Superman]

I find it hard to have a problem with children seized from a polygamist cult. But I agree, the problem is the cult itself.

What exactly do you find wrong with polygamy? Agreed, it often seems to co-exist with underage and/or forced marriages (both therefore rape), which doesn't help its image, but underage and/or forced marriage in itself is criminal and immoral. Polygamy is red herring in such cases.
Polygamy between informed and consenting adults strikes me as being benign and nobody's business but their own.

I don't have a problem with polygamy. I have a problem with this abusive bunch of screwballs having the right to raise kids.

[Broomstick]

I have never understood how a country as rich and powerful as America, can have such frankly ridiculous things happen there.

You people seem to have a disproportionate amount of respect for religion over everything else.

Plural marriage is not confined to nutball religious cults in Utah and Arizona - I've know a few families where there were more than two in a marriage. Of course, some would argue these weren't really marriages since such things are illegal in the US, but they were acting married - living together, having sex together, owning property in common, etc.

But there were some major differences. For one thing, polygamy is institutionalized in the FLDS - everyone must be in a plural marriage. No exceptions. The other group marriages I'm mentioning these are people from the mainstream who have freely chosen to live together. They have the option of leaving the relationship - not so in FLDS, except when women are "reassigned" against their will to another man. Nothing free and consenting about that! Also, the "mainstream" polys I've known have also included situations with multiple husbands as well as multiple wives.

Particularly in large urban areas, if it's really all adults, freely consented, and no one is getting hurt multi-partner groupings will be largely ignored. As far as I'm concerned, as long as no one is getting hurt and everyone has the option to leave but is choosing to stay it's none of my business, and a lot of other people feel much the same. There are some people who will object, sometimes even violently, but they're the exception.

The difference here is that the FLDS was, apparently, forcing young girls into underage marriages and abandoning young men. There are possible issues with a lack of education among the children. THOSE are the points I object to the most. The thing is, the law is supposed to protect everyone, even those with ideas that aren't popular. The FLDS is skirting the narrow edge of the law, but until they break the law they can't be shut down even if we find them really unpleasant. That's why the authorities were focusing on finding evidence of statutory rape and sexual violations - such would be enough to shut the place down.

Let's examine another whacky, insular religious group: the Amish. The Amish have also had problems over the years with the authorities, including having their children seized. While there are some admirable things about the Amish they still are religious Fundamentalists and isolationist, which a lot of people object to or find uncomfortable. They also wear funny clothes and hairstyles. However,

- no one is compelled to stay in the Amish community against their will - about 1/4 of their children leave when they reach adulthood. Members of the FLDS who have left have been threatened and harassed. There have been accusations of attempted murder via sabotage of cars.

- The Amish are scrupulous in educating their children to state standards so that anyone leaving the community will be able to continue their education and become a fully functioning mainstream citizens - the FLDS have closed their schools, relying on "homeschooling" of uncertain nature.

- The Amish also do not burden the social welfare systems - they do not pay into social security, but neither do they collect it, they pay cash for their healthcare needs, they do not collect food stamps or welfare, these functions are entirely taken care of by their church/social infrastructure. Compare this to decades of accusations that the FLDS takes advantage of the "single mother" status of their religious-but-not-legal wives to collect welfare of various sorts

- The Amish do not believe in divorce, but neither do they practice early marriage like the FLDS. Amish marriages typically take place in the late teens/early 20's and there is no indication of either child brides or coercion. In fact, while a minority among the Amish, there are never-marrieds in the community, lifelong singles. No one is forced to marry.

So, while the Amish are a pain in the ass at times they are a law-abiding and mostly harmless pain in the ass. The problem with the FLDS for most is NOT the plural marriage issue (although most in the US find the concept icky and uncomfortable) but the possibility of statutory rape, forced marriages, uneducated children that will grow up to be a burden on society, welfare fraud, and coercion. If those can be proved they place will be shut down, but it has to be done legally.

[FSTargetDrone]

The difference here is that the FLDS was, apparently, forcing young girls into underage marriages and abandoning young men.

This is a good point. I don't think many people are aware of the practice of these boys being expelled from that community:

Polygamy's 'Lost Boys' expelled from only life they knew

Sect's outcasts are casualties of marriage practice

By David Kelly, Los Angeles Times | June 19, 2005

ST. GEORGE, Utah -- Abandoned by his family, faith, and community, Gideon Barlow arrived here an orphan from another world.

The freckle-faced 17-year-old said he was left to fend for himself last year after being forced out of Colorado City, Ariz., just over the state line.

''I couldn't see how my mom would let them do what they did to me," he said.

When he tried to visit her on Mother's Day, he said, she told him to stay away. When he begged to give her a present, she said she wanted nothing. ''I am dead to her now," he said.

Gideon is one of the ''Lost Boys," a group of more than 400 teenagers -- some as young as 13 -- who authorities in Utah and Arizona say have fled or been driven out of the polygamous enclaves of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City over the last four years.

His stated offenses: wearing short-sleeved shirts, listening to compact discs, and having a girlfriend. Other boys say they were booted out for going to movies, watching television, and staying out past curfew.

Some say they were sometimes given as little as two hours' notice before being driven to St. George or nearby Hurricane, Utah, and left like unwanted pets along the road.

Authorities say the teenagers aren't really being expelled for what they watch or wear, but rather to reduce competition for women in places where men can have dozens of wives.

''It's a mathematical thing. If you are marrying all these girls to one man, what do you do with all the boys?" said Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, who has had boys in his office crying to see their mothers. ''People have said to me: 'Why don't you prosecute the parents?' But the kids don't want their parents prosecuted; they want us to get the number one bad guy -- Warren Jeffs. He is chiefly responsible for kicking out these boys."

The 49-year-old Jeffs is the prophet, or leader, of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The FLDS, as it is known, controls Hildale and Colorado City.

The sect, which broke from the Mormon Church more than a century ago, has between 10,000 and 15,000 members.

It believes in ''plural marriage," that a man must have at least three wives to reach the highest levels of heaven. The Mormon Church forbids polygamy and excommunicates those who practice it.

Polygamy is also illegal, and in recent weeks law enforcement has turned up the heat on the FLDS.

On June 10, Jeffs was indicted in Arizona on charges that he had arranged a marriage between a 28-year-old man, who was already married, and a 16-year-old girl.

He faces two years in prison if convicted, though he has not been arrested and is thought to be in Texas.

A few days earlier, a Utah judge froze the assets of the United Effort Plan, an FLDS trust that owns most of the homes and land in the polygamous towns.

And on May 24, the records of the financially troubled Colorado City Unified School District were seized to prevent any evidence of potential wrongdoing from being spirited away, according to the Arizona attorney general's office.

At the same time, Jeffs is being sued by five of the Lost Boys, who contend he conspired to banish them so church elders would have less competition for wives.

Jeffs has not responded to the lawsuit, filed in Utah's Third District Court, leaving him open to a default judgment from the bench.

''There is a virtual Taliban down there. You tell people this stuff happens and they don't believe it," said Dan Fischer, a former FLDS member and dentist living outside Salt Lake City who helps educate and house the exiled teens. The exodus ''has been far more dramatic in the last year."

FLDS officials rarely speak to the media.

But church lawyer Rodney Parker, who is not a member of the faith, said some of the ousted boys were delinquents or proved unable to live up to the community's strict moral code.

''I think many are minimizing their own behavior," he said. ''These places are very different and very strange. But broad-stroke claims about what goes on down there are exaggerations -- and often fiction."

About half a dozen boys who spoke recently say it is all too real.

Tom Sam Steed said he was put on ''religious probation" at 15 for sneaking off to see the film ''Charlie's Angels."

He said he made a personal plea to Jeffs, meeting him in a Colorado City print shop.

''He told me I wasn't welcome," Steed said. ''And on the way out he said: 'Just to let you know, when the final devastation comes, you will be destroyed.' I believed it completely. If you are told your whole life the Earth is flat, what else would you believe?"

Once children are expelled, the FLDS forbids parents from visiting them, and violating the rule can result in eviction from their church-owned homes, say state authorities and former town residents. Many parents sever all ties to their sons.

In some cases, families outside the communities have unofficially adopted the boys.

That's what happened to Gideon. A Mormon couple, Stacha and Neil Glauser of St. George, took him in.

The above is about Utah and from a few years ago, but it describes the practice well enough.