GOP sets up Ministry Of Truth. Yes, Really.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The problem is you can't make jokes about them anymore, they are already doing them, or if you do make the joke they will do it later. Currently waiting for GW to start wearing massive epullettes and a peaked cap everywhere so that he can look like a Banana Republic "President" and then empty what's left of the country's resources into his personal bank account...

Or for Laura to buy an incredable number of shoes between now and January....

[Axis Kast]

What do you find so outrageous, so impossible, so inconceivable, about the incredibly simple tactic of pre-emptive deflecting of criticism? Jesus Christ, you keep Appealing to Incredulity here, and that's a fallacy, or do you forget that?

Prove that's what it is. As of this moment, the facts allow for only limited conclusions. Essentially, the head of the Colorado Republican Party made an Orwell joke that actually reflected poorly on what was being done in the "war room."

And what do you find so believable about the idea that this was a planted reference to Orwell that represents the first salvo in a whole effort to preempt future criticisms about Republican authoritarianism? Get it through your head: no Republican in their right mind is going to stand up there and say, "This man is attacking me for being authoritarian when my party was the original source of the Orwell joke!"? Or, "Why would I joke about something I was actually doing?" There are far better, more obvious strategies to play.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Those who believe in this idea of a Republican strategy have yet to deliver any evidence that the Colorado party head spoke for anyone but himself in making that joke.

I'd also bet that Tancredo spoke off-hand and that bringing up Jack Bauer wasn't part of a well-crafted plan.

You're constructing a completely ludicrous strawman, to the extent that you actually appear insane rather than merely an ass. Nobody claimed that the GOP calling something Orwellian before anybody else got the chance was reflective of some highly calculated GOP strategy. You were the first person to say anything of the sort, and in fact Nitram specifically denied that:

What conspiracy, precisely, exists in someone deflecting criticism pre-emptively? Or are we now expanding 'conspiracy' so you can fling it around like a simian with his defecate?

So either seek help or stop being a jackass, whichever is most effective.

Again, because Orwell is one of my favorite authors, I'd prefer it if you and "some of the other posters" would actually make clear on what grounds they form this opinion--not because I disagree (his public stance on pacifism was, as you say, obtuse), but because I'm genuinely curious about how one comes to that view.

Do you think, "How can you accuse us of authoritarianism when we're the ones who originally brought out the Orwell jokes?" is going to run well?

What? What the fuck are you even talking about? Kanastrous said that George Orwell had authoritarian principles, then you called him "obtuse", and I want to know why you guys think that.

[Axis Kast]

You're constructing a completely ludicrous strawman, to the extent that you actually appear insane rather than merely an ass. Nobody claimed that the GOP calling something Orwellian before anybody else got the chance was reflective of some highly calculated GOP strategy.

It takes a conspiracy theorist to turn one man's gaffe into a forward strategy designed to hide a party's authoritarian agenda.

What? What the fuck are you even talking about? Kanastrous said that George Orwell had authoritarian principles, then you called him "obtuse", and I want to know why you guys think that.

In passing, most people have heard of George Orwell. But that doesn't mean that people are going to be ready drawn in by rhetoric that leverages him or his works, which most people haven't read.

[Pablo Sanchez]

It takes a conspiracy theorist to turn one man's gaffe into a forward strategy designed to hide a party's authoritarian agenda.

Which conspiracy theorist said that in this thread? Nitram? No, he was the first person to call you on this strawman. Zuul? No, he merely commented that this specific case looked like the GOP using faux humor to head off criticism. Ohma? No, he didn't say it either. Did I say it? I'm pretty sure I didn't, especially given that the argument started before I was even in the thread.

So again, what the fuck are you talking about? You're in your own world, here.

In passing, most people have heard of George Orwell. But that doesn't mean that people are going to be ready drawn in by rhetoric that leverages him or his works, which most people haven't read.

The word you're looking for is "abstruse," not obtuse. Obtuse means dense, stupid, dull. Abstruse means obscure, difficult to understand, not commonly known. George Orwell is anything but obtuse, and I'd have to say that given the popularity of the adjective "Orwellian" and the prevalence of 1984 and "Shooting and Elephant", he isn't really abstruse, either. Both are standard high-school reading.

[Axis Kast]

A direct quote from Zuul:

I suppose they're banking on illiteracy of the masses and an attempt to poison the well against Orwell-related criticisms.

Orwell-related criticisms can only be criticisms of authoritarianism, in this context.

It's within the realm of possibility. But it isn't supported -- or even hinted at -- by the facts in this case. Given the board's proud emphasis on careful use of evidence and logic, it isn't a mistake I figure would be made. There is nothing to warrant his supposition. And I've been pointing up the limited probable value of any such campaign. The Republicans have a strategy that's tried and true when confronted about legislation like THE PATRIOT ACT: they retort that their opponents don't understand how to tackle terrorism. Claiming, "But we even joke about authoritarianism! That proves we aren't guilty of it!" is less straightforward.

The word you're looking for is "abstruse," not obtuse. Obtuse means dense, stupid, dull. Abstruse means obscure, difficult to understand, not commonly known. George Orwell is anything but obtuse, and I'd have to say that given the popularity of the adjective "Orwellian" and the prevalence of 1984 and "Shooting and Elephant", he isn't really abstruse, either. Both are standard high-school reading.

Prove it. Do you have evidence that most schools assign Orwell to most students? Or that Orwell is recognizable as anything other than a famous author, his specific body of work aside? I think the name is recognizable to many; the nature of his beliefs, much less so.

[Invictus ChiKen]

Prove it. Do you have evidence that most schools assign Orwell to most students? Or that Orwell is recognizable as anything other than a famous author, his specific body of work aside? I think the name is recognizable to many; the nature of his beliefs, much less so.

Well last I checked High School Freshmen are required to read Animal Farm and 1984's movie version is still in the public mind. Reference the Anti-Hillary and Anti-Obama 1984 scenes.

People know what Orwell means for the most part. It's well known even in the rural backwater I live in (Of course they think the Dems are the Thought Police but that's another thread).

[General Zod]

Prove it. Do you have evidence that most schools assign Orwell to most students? Or that Orwell is recognizable as anything other than a famous author, his specific body of work aside? I think the name is recognizable to many; the nature of his beliefs, much less so.

Who cares if anyone knows the specifics? Orwellian is to oppressive authoritarian government what the KKK are to racists. It's absurdly easy to make the association by simply invoking the terms.

[Axis Kast]

Well last I checked High School Freshmen are required to read Animal Farm and 1984's movie version is still in the public mind. Reference the Anti-Hillary and Anti-Obama 1984 scenes.

With whom did you check? I read 1984 in AP English. I did not read Animal Farm.

I've also never seen the TV spots to which you allude.

People know what Orwell means for the most part. It's well known even in the rural backwater I live in (Of course they think the Dems are the Thought Police but that's another thread).

People do know that Orwell is synonymous with a critique of authoritarianism. But knowing that, and feeling reassured by the line, "Authoritarianism?! How can you accuse us of that when we're the ones making jokes about Orwell?" are two different things. Especially when the joke was made by a single individual, very obscure.

[chitoryu12]

With whom did you check? I read 1984 in AP English. I did not read Animal Farm.

Animal Farm is an honors level book, not AP. The library and some classrooms still have copies of 1984 at Lake Mary High School.

[SirNitram]

1984 is now Honors material, Animal Farm completely absent?

The hell? I read both in my Junior year for assignments, and it's not like there's a huge remove between me and current US grads.

[CaptainChewbacca]

1984 is now Honors material, Animal Farm completely absent?

The hell? I read both in my Junior year for assignments, and it's not like there's a huge remove between me and current US grads.

I read animal farm in 7th grade, but I didn't get assigned 1984 until college. Its commonly read, but not universally.

[Invictus ChiKen]

With whom did you check? I read 1984 in AP English. I did not read Animal Farm.

I've also never seen the TV spots to which you allude.

I find this hard to believe (Not saying your lying) it was all over the news not to long back and we discussed it on this very message board.

People do know that Orwell is synonymous with a critique of authoritarianism. But knowing that, and feeling reassured by the line, "Authoritarianism?! How can you accuse us of that when we're the ones making jokes about Orwell?" are two different things. Especially when the joke was made by a single individual, very obscure.

Nice try but even in this rural backwater most people have at one point read the novel. In fact I've rarely meet a person in state, out of state online or off that hasn't.

[Qwerty 42]

Just to put it out there, I read both in high school as part of class assignments: Animal Farm freshman year, 1984 senior year.

[Axis Kast]

I find this hard to believe (Not saying your lying) it was all over the news not to long back and we discussed it on this very message board.

This does not constitute proof that I have seen the ads in question.

Nice try but even in this rural backwater most people have at one point read the novel. In fact I've rarely meet a person in state, out of state online or off that hasn't.

You poll everyone you meet, do you?

Not that that's the main point here. The matter is, you have people making guesses about Republican strategy based on a single quotation from a single individual, and ignoring the fact that far better responses to criticisms of authoritarianism already exist.

[PeZook]

During last year's Parliamentary campaign over here, the ruling party (a bunch of semi-authoritarian fuckheads not dissimilar to the GOP) released an attack ad against the man who is now a current premier.

They portrayed him as Neo, with a slogan that "Evil does not alway look it" or something to that effect.

The ad was emitted on billboards throughout the country, and journalists everywhere had a field time blasting them for this embarassing mistake (they obviously wanted to include Smith there). The embarassment was incredible, and PiS (heh, pis party ) activists looked hilarious trying to spin it.

Really, I don't think jokingly calling that "War Room" the Ministry Of Trurth was malicious or a conscious strategy. It's probably a nigh illiterate Republican not knowing where the name came from.

[The Yosemite Bear]

1984 is now Honors material, Animal Farm completely absent?

The hell? I read both in my Junior year for assignments, and it's not like there's a huge remove between me and current US grads.

We read and discussed both my sophmore year in high school, along with "Brave New World" I swear it was like a distopia year. Worse the made us read "A Seperate Peace", and "Fountinhead"....

[Timotheus]

Big fucking deal. Was a verbal gaffe.

Or do we say Clinton was a NAZI because a high up member of his cabinet once described their economic programs as a "national socialist" program?

Don't play a game unless you want both sides to play the game.

[General Zod]

Big fucking deal. Was a verbal gaffe.

Or do we say Clinton was a NAZI because a high up member of his cabinet once described their economic programs as a "national socialist" program?

Don't play a game unless you want both sides to play the game.

Clearly you're too stupid to see the humor in a government party known for authoritarian tactics and policies deliberately invoking terminology from a book whose terms have well known connotations. The same cannot be said for the Democrats and your horribly weak "national socialist" nonsense.