Let's do the time warp again!!!!

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Big Phil
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Re: Let's do the time warp again!!!!

Post by Big Phil »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:But you see, that does not further Sanchez the Wanker's axe-grinding. My comment was supposed to be rhetorical, in response to your typical American right-wing bias in favor of foreign policy jingoism; how is it you think any other country avoids being attacked and remains secure and pursues its interests?
I am almost speechless; I don't know if you're an imbecile, a liar, or a coward. You make a claim, you're asked to justify it, and you run away. Then, when other people do your own damned job for you, you come back in and claim that I'm being mean and have an axe to grind.

What's so pathetic is that initial response to you neither justified the Iraq War, nor proposed that there were no alternatives to war. That's your own stupidity in action.
SancheztheWhaler wrote:And what other countries are able to successfully bribe their opponents without the threat of military force to back up the bribe? Can you offer an example where a global or regional power didn't use (at least) the threat of military force to back up their diplomacy?
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Illuminatus Primus
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Re: Let's do the time warp again!!!!

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:I am almost speechless; I don't know if you're an imbecile, a liar, or a coward. You make a claim, you're asked to justify it, and you run away. Then, when other people do your own damned job for you, you come back in and claim that I'm being mean and have an axe to grind.
I'm sorry I have work and school and stuff, and am not available to get bogged down in an Internet debate before anyone else replies. I was not avoiding you, I just was not available to invest the time before others chose to attack your laughable pretenses.
SancheztheWhaler wrote:What's so pathetic is that initial response to you neither justified the Iraq War, nor proposed that there were no alternatives to war. That's your own stupidity in action.
SancheztheWhaler wrote:And what other countries are able to successfully bribe their opponents without the threat of military force to back up the bribe? Can you offer an example where a global or regional power didn't use (at least) the threat of military force to back up their diplomacy?
Mike said it himself: why is it you need to threaten to beat someone bloody when you're bribing them? I hear that's how all the lobbyists do it these days.
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Re: Let's do the time warp again!!!!

Post by Darth Wong »

SanchezTheWhaler's behaviour in this thread is actually a textbook example of what is wrong with American thinking on international relations. Far too many Americans don't seem to understand how international relations are typically conducted; they start from the standpoint of so-called "hegemon theory" and they don't know how to break out of that intellectual straitjacket.

According to "hegemon theory", there is no need to engage in normal bilateral negotiations. The hegemon can simply force his will onto lesser parties, and that is how things get done. Someone who is sufficiently trapped in this mindset can actually lose sight of the fact that there is any other way to get things done. Look at how he is actually demanding evidence that it is possible to do negotiations any other way, as if he has never heard of peace treaties, trade treaties, and bilateral arms reduction treaties.

The truth is that most of the time, negotiations between two countries involve balancing competing interests. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. I offer a concession, you offer a concession. The idea that the only way to negotiate is to say "you do what I say or else" is so mind-bogglingly stupid that it's hard to believe SanchezTheWhaler expects anyone to take him seriously.
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Re: Let's do the time warp again!!!!

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Not to mention, its not like the U.S. can't get the better half of the deal, that's what comes with being a superpower and having the greater leverage. But to demand that all deals be completely one-sided is totally ridiculous, and its no surprise that Iraq thumbed its nose at us while we bombed it constantly and economically sanctioned it for decades.
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Patrick Degan
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Post by Patrick Degan »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:No, I asked you to provide examples of countries who have successfully used rapprochement or bribery.

And as I pointed out, using Sino-American relations as an example of OTHER (non-US countries) utilizing rapprochement doesn't support your argument.
Howzabout Russia and Iran —specifically in reference to their nuclear reactor construction project being carried out by Minatom?

Howzabout Russia and Venezuela, in reference to the recent arms-sale agreement and possible alliance?

Howzabout the long history of Soviet/Indian relations through the Cold War?

Howzabout the ongoing rapproachment between Israel and Egypt?

There are plenty of examples which demonstrates the point. And how does the example of Sino/American rapproachment not provide a first-class example of the successful employment of a mode of international relations which is not based on threat of force? You seem to be going out of your way to handwave in this thread to try to protect a broken argument.
Last edited by Patrick Degan on 2008-10-27 10:35pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's do the time warp again!!!!

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Sidewinder wrote:Do you understand now why Kerry alienated American veterans during his campaign?
The only ones he alienated are (a) those who protest their innocence too much, and (b) those who weren't going to vote for him anyway. I have several Vietnam veterans in my family. None of them squealed like little bitches over the atrocities or the people who denounced them. The fact that someone who hears of war crimes shrieks "WHO? ME? How dare you call me a war criminal!" makes me suspicious as hell, as the recent Beauchamp case in Iraq shows clearly.

As for your claim about My Lai:
The My Lai Massacre was public knowledge in 1971, but Kerry's testimony stated, "I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." Evidence that US military servicemen committed these atrocities on a day to day basis wasn't released until 2006.
The My Lai Massacre was well known by 1969, when it made the front page of the New York Times:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/tr ... y_lai.html
Word of the atrocities did not reach the American public until November 1969, when journalist Seymour Hersh published a story detailing his conversations with a Vietnam veteran, Ron Ridenhour. Ridenhour learned of the events at My Lai from members of Charlie Company who had been there. Before speaking with Hersh, he had appealed to Congress, the White House, and the Pentagon to investigate the matter. The military investigation resulted in Calley's being charged with murder in September 1969 -- a full two months before the Hersh story hit the streets.
It was 1971 when the right-wingers turned Calley into a folk hero and Nixon commuted his sentence.

The Toledo Blade won the Pulitzer Prize for Journalism because it had exposed numerous atrocities committed by Tiger Force Three in 2003. Before Kerry had even been nominated.

So all this posturing is no different from Mel Gibson's defense of his father who explains the disappearance of six million European Jews during WW2 by claiming they all moved to Sydney. It's dishonest, stupid and pathetic.
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Re: Let's do the time warp again!!!!

Post by Surlethe »

Here's an analogy. Think of the world as a village, with every country represented as a person. Right now, the US is the richest, strongest man in the village. He's the alpha male. He can beat anyone into submission one-on-one, he revels in his wealth, and everybody pretty much has to do what he says. So how does he use his power? Does he take what he wants, bully his way to more wealth and influence, and undermine his future? Or does he act responsibly, preserve his national image, and in general try to make the world a better place?

The actual reality is somewhere in the middle, but it's more of the former and less of the latter than it should be.

One last thought: like it or not, the world has to live with the US and the US has to live with the world. They're like roommates. Do roommates get along by compromise and negotiation, or by unilateral agreements?
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Re: Let's do the time warp again!!!!

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