House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by KrauserKrauser »

House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks
Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nation’s $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.

House Education and Labor Committee Chairman George Miller, D-California, and Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Washington, chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee’s Subcommittee on Income Security and Family Support, are looking at redirecting those tax breaks to a new system of guaranteed retirement accounts to which all workers would be obliged to contribute.

A plan by Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic-policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, contains elements that are being considered. She testified last week before Miller’s Education and Labor Committee on her proposal.

At that hearing, the director of the Congressional Budget Office, Peter Orszag, testified that some $2 trillion in retirement savings has been lost over the past 15 months.

Under Ghilarducci’s plan, all workers would receive a $600 annual inflation-adjusted subsidy from the U.S. government but would be required to invest 5 percent of their pay into a guaranteed retirement account administered by the Social Security Administration. The money in turn would be invested in special government bonds that would pay 3 percent a year, adjusted for inflation.

The current system of providing tax breaks on 401(k) contributions and earnings would be eliminated.

“I want to stop the federal subsidy of 401(k)s,” Ghilarducci said in an interview. “401(k)s can continue to exist, but they won’t have the benefit of the subsidy of the tax break.”

Under the current 401(k) system, investors are charged relatively high retail fees, Ghilarducci said.

“I want to spend our nation’s dollar for retirement security better. Everybody would now be covered” if the plan were adopted, Ghilarducci said.

She has been in contact with Miller and McDermott about her plan, and they are interested in pursuing it, she said.

“This [plan] certainly is intriguing,” said Mike DeCesare, press secretary for McDermott.

“That is part of the discussion,” he said.

While Miller stopped short of calling for Ghilarducci’s plan at the hearing last week, he was clearly against continuing tax breaks as they currently exist.

Savings rate
“The savings rate isn’t going up for the investment of $80 billion,” he said. “We have to start to think about ... whether or not we want to continue to invest that $80 billion for a policy that’s not generating what we now say it should.”

“From where I sit that’s just crazy,” said John Belluardo, president of Stewardship Financial Services Inc. in Tarrytown, New York. “A lot of people contribute to their 401(k)s because of the match of the employer,” he said. Belluardo’s firm does not manage assets directly.

Higher-income employers provide matching funds to employee plans so that they can qualify for tax benefits for their own defined-contribution plans, he said.

“If the tax deferral goes away, the employers have no reason to do the matches, which primarily help people in the lower income brackets,” Belluardo said.

“This is a battle between liberalism and conservatism,” said Christopher Van Slyke, a partner in the La Jolla, California, advisory firm Trovena, which manages $400 million. “People are afraid because their accounts are seeing some volatility, so Democrats will seize on the opportunity to attack a program where investors control their own destiny,” he said.

The Profit Sharing/401(k) Council of America in Chicago, which represents employers that sponsor defined-contribution plans, is “staunchly committed to keeping the employee benefit system in America voluntary,” said Ed Ferrigno, vice president in the Washington office.

“Some of the tenor [of the hearing last week] that the entire system should be based on the activities of the markets in the last 90 days is not the way to judge the system,” he said.

No legislative proposals have been introduced and Congress is out of session until next year.

However, most political observers believe that Democrats are poised to gain seats in both the House and the Senate, so comments made by the mostly Democratic members who attended the hearing could be a harbinger of things to come.

Advice at issue
In addition to tax breaks for 401(k)s, the issue of allowing investment advisors to provide advice for 401(k) plans was also addressed at the hearing. Rep. Robert Andrews, D-New Jersey, was critical of Department of Labor proposals made in August that would allow advisors to give individual advice if the advice was generated using a computer model.

Andrews characterized the proposals as “loopholes” and said that investment advice should not be given by advisors who have a direct interest in the sale of financial products.

The Pension Protection Act of 2006 contains provisions making it easier for investment advisors to give individualized counseling to 401(k) holders.

“In retrospect that doesn’t seem like such a good idea to me,” Andrews said. “This is an issue I think we have to revisit. I frankly think that the compromise we struck in 2006 is not terribly workable or wise,” he said.

On Thursday, October 9, the Department of Labor hastily scheduled a public hearing on the issue in Washington for Tuesday, October 21.

The agency does not frequently hold public hearings on its proposals.

Linky

While this is not a bill yet, the idea of handing over money to the Social Security administration which has a great track record of not being raided by Congress for funds :roll: makes me sick.

I honestly hope that this in no way gets any traction.
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict
User avatar
Col. Crackpot
That Obnoxious Guy
Posts: 10228
Joined: 2002-10-28 05:04pm
Location: Rhode Island
Contact:

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by Col. Crackpot »

I highly doubt that some whack a loon social worker's plan to socialize the 401K system will even make it out of committee.
"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.” -Tom Clancy
User avatar
J
Kaye Elle Emenopey
Posts: 5837
Joined: 2002-12-14 02:23pm

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by J »

If this somehow passes into law it would be really interesting to see what the unintended consequences will be. Interesting in the "I wonder how high the body will bounce if that person jumps off a bridge?" kind of way.
This post is a 100% natural organic product.
The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects


I'm not sure why people choose 'To Love is to Bury' as their wedding song...It's about a murder-suicide
- Margo Timmins


When it becomes serious, you have to lie
- Jean-Claude Juncker
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by Coyote »

Although I understand the motivations behind it-- right now, putting money in a 401(k) is about akin to flushing it down a toilet, so the government may as well get a tax slice from it before it disappears.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by The Kernel »

Coyote wrote:Although I understand the motivations behind it-- right now, putting money in a 401(k) is about akin to flushing it down a toilet, so the government may as well get a tax slice from it before it disappears.
The hell it is. If you only buy into the market when it is up you aren't going to make jack shit in the way of profits. Only idiots would pull their money out when the market is low or buy only when the market is up. That's just about the quickest way to go broke.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by General Zod »

Well fuck, I hope this shit doesn't make it out of committee. I just started a 401k, and I'm not contributing MUCH but I'd really prefer my employer not to have a reason to stop making matching contributions.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by Broomstick »

The Kernel wrote:
Coyote wrote:Although I understand the motivations behind it-- right now, putting money in a 401(k) is about akin to flushing it down a toilet, so the government may as well get a tax slice from it before it disappears.
The hell it is. If you only buy into the market when it is up you aren't going to make jack shit in the way of profits. Only idiots would pull their money out when the market is low or buy only when the market is up. That's just about the quickest way to go broke.
There is no shortage of idiots in the world.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

only two things are infinate the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not too sure about the universe - A. Einstine
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Alan Bolte
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2611
Joined: 2002-07-05 12:17am
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by Alan Bolte »

The Kernel wrote:
Coyote wrote:Although I understand the motivations behind it-- right now, putting money in a 401(k) is about akin to flushing it down a toilet, so the government may as well get a tax slice from it before it disappears.
The hell it is. If you only buy into the market when it is up you aren't going to make jack shit in the way of profits. Only idiots would pull their money out when the market is low or buy only when the market is up. That's just about the quickest way to go broke.
While it's true that "buy high, sell low" is throwing your money away, knowing where high and low are require foresight, not hindsight. While it's true that U.S. stock markets have historically recovered in a reasonable amount of time, there is no guarantee that they will do so this time. It's been about a year since the Dow's record high. Japan's Nikkei 225 index has yet to return to the highs of 1991, much less its peak of December 1989. It can, and might, happen here.
Any job worth doing with a laser is worth doing with many, many lasers. -Khrima
There's just no arguing with some people once they've made their minds up about something, and I accept that. That's why I kill them. -Othar
Avatar credit
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by SirNitram »

I've always been curious. When is this looting of SS happening? I understand one rumor is that Johnson looted it... However, just looking at the Trustee's report shows that the Actuarial Balance of those years is in the 90s to the 110 range. No raids, because the fund was almost completely, harmoniously stable.

Nixon was pretty bad, causing the balance to crash out, and the two after him did dick. Ironically, Reagan's years have the recovery start, and it climbs up to 100 and beyond, spending the majority of the Clinton years in 100+ territory.

So.. Where's the damn raiding?

Then again.. 'Guaranteed retirement account'? Sounds like more privatization of such. Yea, that would've worked so well.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

"Barrowing" from social security to fund other things began under LBJ's "Great Society" Outright looting of it had to wait for Reagan.
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Social Security has a colossal unfunded liability (bigger then the US national debt as I recall for the next 40 years), so in all reality it hasn’t been raided so much as just systematically denied funding so money could be spent on other things without ever entering SSs pocket at all.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by SirNitram »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:"Barrowing" from social security to fund other things began under LBJ's "Great Society" Outright looting of it had to wait for Reagan.
So where is this raiding? Please indicate where and the proof.
Social Security has a colossal unfunded liability (bigger then the US national debt as I recall for the next 40 years), so in all reality it hasn’t been raided so much as just systematically denied funding so money could be spent on other things without ever entering SSs pocket at all.
Unless, of course, the rather likely 'Low Cost' model remains accurate. People seem to skim over that.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
TrailerParkJawa
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5850
Joined: 2002-07-04 11:49pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by TrailerParkJawa »

The Kernel wrote:
Coyote wrote:Although I understand the motivations behind it-- right now, putting money in a 401(k) is about akin to flushing it down a toilet, so the government may as well get a tax slice from it before it disappears.
The hell it is. If you only buy into the market when it is up you aren't going to make jack shit in the way of profits. Only idiots would pull their money out when the market is low or buy only when the market is up. That's just about the quickest way to go broke.
It certainly is not akin to flushing money down the toilet. My company offers several choices that making 2-3% interest like a CD. Its not a lot but once you factor in the tax savings of a 401k acct. its not a bad shelter. Since my retirement is 30 years away I have time to purchase stocks at a low point and have them recover.

So I most certainly would not appreciate the gov't taking away 401k benefits. The 401k isnt perfect and some companies offer crap plans but that doesnt mean its time for them to abolished.
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12269
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by Surlethe »

SirNitram wrote:Unless, of course, the rather likely 'Low Cost' model remains accurate. People seem to skim over that.
I recall that recently you pulled out diagrams and made the argument that SS is not, and will not be, insolvent. Do you think you could copy that and put it in the Library in SLAM?
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by SirNitram »

Surlethe wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Unless, of course, the rather likely 'Low Cost' model remains accurate. People seem to skim over that.
I recall that recently you pulled out diagrams and made the argument that SS is not, and will not be, insolvent. Do you think you could copy that and put it in the Library in SLAM?
I can copy it(Just did), but I lack authorization to post or move to Library, it seems. Don't ask me why. I assume flying monkeys.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

SirNitram wrote:
Surlethe wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Unless, of course, the rather likely 'Low Cost' model remains accurate. People seem to skim over that.
I recall that recently you pulled out diagrams and made the argument that SS is not, and will not be, insolvent. Do you think you could copy that and put it in the Library in SLAM?
I can copy it(Just did), but I lack authorization to post or move to Library, it seems. Don't ask me why. I assume flying monkeys.
I would guess that Ozymandius could?

purhaps you could ask him. :mrgreen: :angelic: :twisted:
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks

Post by General Zod »

Stargate Nerd wrote:
KrauserKrauser wrote:
While this is not a bill yet, the idea of handing over money to the Social Security administration which has a great track record of not being raided by Congress for funds :roll: makes me sick.
Because that's so much worse than working for a company that collapses and takes your 401k with it.
The only reason the company's collapse would take your 401k out with it is if you were invested in the employer's stock and nothing else. Diversified portfolios do not have nearly the same kind of liability and do not magically go away if something happens to your company.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Post Reply