Chrysler shuts down all production
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
Few can be stupid enough to think that this situation around the globe wouldn't affect the other motor companies. While Detroit has been digging itself a sizeable hole in recent years, that only means they suffer more in comparison to everyone else. It is not a good time to be s seller of any luxury goods, and I can only wonder how the Beamer dealership near me hopes to sell those new Porsches they just put out on the forecourt.
Seems Jaguar Land Rover is in the shit too, about to request their own bailout. On the plus side, no more Lucas the prince of darkness products if they die.
Seems Jaguar Land Rover is in the shit too, about to request their own bailout. On the plus side, no more Lucas the prince of darkness products if they die.
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
See, I can agree I erred in every objection to this except for the stupid 'FOR ALL YOU KNOW!'. For all you know, Skipper, the plant needs enough bugs to be worked out for it to need to be continuing construction now.Sea Skimmer wrote:First of all, it says an engine plant, and for all you know they have a six month supply of engines on hand to keep making cars with. Parts supply cuts aren’t usually matched evenly to cuts in assembly. Second of all the Chevy Volt IS NOT IN PRODUCTION in the first place. It’s a 2010 product, and damn better then anything else another company can offer in a similar timeframe, but if GM doesn’t get bailed out it will never see mass production because it’s a big investment to start making them.SirNitram wrote:
So, yea. Not at all what is being trumpeted as a 'paid vacation'. Paid vacations don't get you on the unemployment line.
Also: GM == Morons. If you want to convince people you're serious about improving yourself, you do not shut down the plant making a plug-in electric with no word of your bigger models being stopped in production.
But that's beside the point. It's PR. GM is on the ropes and going down, and thus it needs all the shiny objects possible to plead with. This is no longer a business decision, because the only path of pure business heads down a black hole. It's politics, and thus needs to be approached as such.
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
Couldn't the shutting down of the Volt plant construction just as easily be used for PR in favor of the bailout. Something to the tune of "We would be fine if we could get the Volt in production, too bad we don't have enough $$$ to get the plant up and running."
Who knows what management is thinking when making these decisions, they got this far down the hole in the first place, you expect them to make 100% judgement calls now that they are nearing bankruptcy? Desperation does not generally create the best laid plans.
Who knows what management is thinking when making these decisions, they got this far down the hole in the first place, you expect them to make 100% judgement calls now that they are nearing bankruptcy? Desperation does not generally create the best laid plans.
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
Definitely not. Similarly desperate sounds: GM, Chrysler merger talks reopen. Is there a logical reason, either PR-politics, or business, to do this? I'm mystified, admittably.KrauserKrauser wrote:Couldn't the shutting down of the Volt plant construction just as easily be used for PR in favor of the bailout. Something to the tune of "We would be fine if we could get the Volt in production, too bad we don't have enough $$$ to get the plant up and running."
Who knows what management is thinking when making these decisions, they got this far down the hole in the first place, you expect them to make 100% judgement calls now that they are nearing bankruptcy? Desperation does not generally create the best laid plans.
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
i swear to god Nitram... do you apply your fatalist attitude to your career? It's always the end of the world with you. Are you the guy at the office that hyper ventilates and gets himself worked up into a tizzy when faced with the slightest setback?
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
No, I'm the guy dying of liver failure in a time when medical issues are a real crisis.Col. Crackpot wrote:i swear to god Nitram... do you apply your fatalist attitude to your career? It's always the end of the world with you. Are you the guy at the office that hyper ventilates and gets himself worked up into a tizzy when faced with the slightest setback?
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
I’m not the one objecting to a sound decision to give the company at least a chance at survival. The engine is nothing but an evolutionary upgrade of existing power plants and they actually are, or at least had been converting several existing factories to build it in Europe and China as well. Production problems are thus unlikely. GM hopes to use it to power most of its economy lineup world wide. That also means ample supply will exist for the Volt, which is only going to build 10,000 units the first year anyway. No idea why the American plant is all new… but I strongly suspect it has to do with the Unions. When GM builds a new plant they get to choose how many workers it will employ, but cutting workers at existing plants is extremely difficult and always very expensive no matter how unnecessary they are.SirNitram wrote: See, I can agree I erred in every objection to this except for the stupid 'FOR ALL YOU KNOW!'. For all you know, Skipper, the plant needs enough bugs to be worked out for it to need to be continuing construction now.
The Volt was never a true business decision. At over 40,000 dollars it’s unaffordable to average consumers without government subsidies. Luckily the government decided to set aside a billion dollars a year in a tax credit written especially for it; though on paper it could also apply to other hypothetical range extended electric vehicles.
But that's beside the point. It's PR. GM is on the ropes and going down, and thus it needs all the shiny objects possible to plead with. This is no longer a business decision, because the only path of pure business heads down a black hole. It's politics, and thus needs to be approached as such.
In addition to that, GM needed part of that 25 billion dollar loan package for fuel efficiency to cover the enormous production startup costs. However Congress has been talking about taking most of that loan package and restructuring it for use as bailout money. If that happened the Volt would just be kicked in the teeth. So yeah… continuing work makes no sense at all unless GM has a firm economic future. I can see GM gaining something from pointing out to Congress that they’ve been forced to quit investing in anything, including Volt, but I can see no positive result from continuing work and thus losing time to get a bailout. In two or three months, GM is surely dead without a bailout. If they do get a bailout, they can make up the time lost and import engines if they must.
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
Well, with you bringing up things I had not been aware of(Including the conversion of other plants), I concede the argument. I still think they need to approach the coming times with an eye to PR, but you are right in that there is a valid argument for the bailout based on this stop.
That being said, the best outcome remains the government liquidizing GM and Chrysler as failures and transferring their plants to Ford, Aptera, and Tesla for conversion. If you're going to start legislating pay as the GOP tried, or enforcing bankruptcy as the White House is (allegedly) planning, why not go the whole hog and just nationalize and shift to companies which are actually trying new shit and remaining profit-positive?(Though in Ford's case, I believe it's only one of those two.)
That being said, the best outcome remains the government liquidizing GM and Chrysler as failures and transferring their plants to Ford, Aptera, and Tesla for conversion. If you're going to start legislating pay as the GOP tried, or enforcing bankruptcy as the White House is (allegedly) planning, why not go the whole hog and just nationalize and shift to companies which are actually trying new shit and remaining profit-positive?(Though in Ford's case, I believe it's only one of those two.)
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
Well I do agree they need good PR… but it shouldn’t be necessary to do more then lay out the reality of the situation. The economic disaster that the death of the big three or even GM alone would bring is far worse then spending even 100 billion to keep them afloat. I mean… do people in Congress really think we can just have an American economy based completely on services? At a time when the rest of the world is more educated and better at copying innovations then ever?SirNitram wrote:Well, with you bringing up things I had not been aware of(Including the conversion of other plants), I concede the argument. I still think they need to approach the coming times with an eye to PR, but you are right in that there is a valid argument for the bailout based on this stop.
I’m firmly in favor of just nationalizing them for the time being. The problem is, while on paper this should let them restructure in an optional manner since time and money aren’t an issue.. in reality it would just mean the UAW would proclaim that it no longer has to make a single concession since Uncle Sam can pick up the entire tab. At least with a prepackaged bankruptcy we can hopefully avoid that, and use the courts to just plain invalided the union contract. But restructuring is expensive… even just closing a plant costs a fair bit of money if you don’t have to pay off the workers for 200,000 dollars apiece. The big three just can’t afford it if they don’t get some kind of loan, and they certainly don’t have the money to hang on for months of court proceedings without some kind of aid.That being said, the best outcome remains the government liquidizing GM and Chrysler as failures and transferring their plants to Ford, Aptera, and Tesla for conversion. If you're going to start legislating pay as the GOP tried, or enforcing bankruptcy as the White House is (allegedly) planning, why not go the whole hog and just nationalize and shift to companies which are actually trying new shit and remaining profit-positive?(Though in Ford's case, I believe it's only one of those two.)
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
Can I also point out it's not only the Unions, but a lot of varied state laws and regulations, as well as contracts with dealerships that are dragging the General down?
In effect, it's actually LESS loss inducing to keep a very unprofitable brand going; e.g. you're bleeding like $250 million a year keeping Brand "Sucks So Bad Nobody Is Buying It", afloat; but if you wanted to close down that Brand, it would cost you like $1 trillion or what in buying out the dealership contracts, closing them and consolidating them etc; so the unprofitable brands are kept on board, cannibalizing other profitable brands.
EDIT: If GM goes under, I think General Motors as a huge mega conglomerate won't survive; but the more profitable brands will; for example, Chevrolet would be bought out by some investors or whoever, and continue operations as an independent car company.
In effect, it's actually LESS loss inducing to keep a very unprofitable brand going; e.g. you're bleeding like $250 million a year keeping Brand "Sucks So Bad Nobody Is Buying It", afloat; but if you wanted to close down that Brand, it would cost you like $1 trillion or what in buying out the dealership contracts, closing them and consolidating them etc; so the unprofitable brands are kept on board, cannibalizing other profitable brands.
EDIT: If GM goes under, I think General Motors as a huge mega conglomerate won't survive; but the more profitable brands will; for example, Chevrolet would be bought out by some investors or whoever, and continue operations as an independent car company.
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
Frankly, yes. Services, financials, and foreign industry. The biggest opposition came from folks whose states had paid out the nose to bribe foreign automakers in. There was a period I vaguely recall the Wall Street Masters Of The Universe proclaiming that manufacturing was going to phase out entirely; America would function as literally a financial machine for the rest of the world. This was the first time I suspected something was going on akin to brainwashing.Sea Skimmer wrote:Well I do agree they need good PR… but it shouldn’t be necessary to do more then lay out the reality of the situation. The economic disaster that the death of the big three or even GM alone would bring is far worse then spending even 100 billion to keep them afloat. I mean… do people in Congress really think we can just have an American economy based completely on services? At a time when the rest of the world is more educated and better at copying innovations then ever?SirNitram wrote:Well, with you bringing up things I had not been aware of(Including the conversion of other plants), I concede the argument. I still think they need to approach the coming times with an eye to PR, but you are right in that there is a valid argument for the bailout based on this stop.
I have alot less fears about the UAW exploiting it as the simple fact that we keep edging dangerously close to elected politicos making business decisions for these companies. While I can see potential upsides in a nationalized business, it would come from the fact you have the government's purse and the government's access to specialists and experts. It would most certainly go horribly wrong with the Senate approving each thing. That's the most repulsive aspect of this: Our comrades from the Red(REDS! UNDER THE BED!) states like Alabama wanted to decide the pay of workers. I'm fairly sure no one elected these people to legislate anyone's salaries.I’m firmly in favor of just nationalizing them for the time being. The problem is, while on paper this should let them restructure in an optional manner since time and money aren’t an issue.. in reality it would just mean the UAW would proclaim that it no longer has to make a single concession since Uncle Sam can pick up the entire tab. At least with a prepackaged bankruptcy we can hopefully avoid that, and use the courts to just plain invalided the union contract. But restructuring is expensive… even just closing a plant costs a fair bit of money if you don’t have to pay off the workers for 200,000 dollars apiece. The big three just can’t afford it if they don’t get some kind of loan, and they certainly don’t have the money to hang on for months of court proceedings without some kind of aid.That being said, the best outcome remains the government liquidizing GM and Chrysler as failures and transferring their plants to Ford, Aptera, and Tesla for conversion. If you're going to start legislating pay as the GOP tried, or enforcing bankruptcy as the White House is (allegedly) planning, why not go the whole hog and just nationalize and shift to companies which are actually trying new shit and remaining profit-positive?(Though in Ford's case, I believe it's only one of those two.)
A preplanned bankruptcy strikes me as playing craps with quite a few jobs. Yes, restructuring has alot of bullshit(Including, as Shep mentioned, state level fiascos), but how many people will buy from a company in the throes of bankruptcy, particularly for a long-term investment like a car?
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Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
The question now is: will both houses accept these reasons and release TARP money for the last great manufacturing industry in the States? I hear Paulson is going to ask for the rest of the cash soon, despite saying he wouldn't need it and that no more banks would in under etc. If Capitol Hill doesn't buy this and disgraces Hank, then that may hurt the chances of getting long term funds from that pot in the future. A lot of people really do not see problems in service economies, even with our problems today.
Re: Chrysler shuts down all production
Make that "will post a loss"Ma Deuce wrote:... even Toyota, who were pulling in $3-4 billion a quarter a year ago (making them more profitable than every other automaker in the word combined) are now themselves cutting production, slashing capital spending, suspending bonuses, and may now even post a loss for the second half of 2008. So much for the notion that Detroit's current problems are entirely their own fault.
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Toyota projects first operating loss since 1941
By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer Yuri Kageyama, Ap Business Writer – Mon Dec 22, 8:17 am ET
NAGOYA, Japan – Toyota Motor Corp. slashed its earnings forecast Monday, projecting that it would report its first annual operating loss for the fiscal year through March — its first such loss since it began reporting results in 1941.
Battered by falling demand from consumers around the world and a surging yen, Toyota and other Japanese automakers have been reducing earnings outlooks and cutting workers.
"The change that has hit the world economy is of a critical scale that comes once in a hundred years," President Katsuaki Watanabe said at the company's Nagoya office. The drop in vehicle sales over the last month was "far faster, wider and deeper than expected."
Toyota forecast an operating loss of 150 billion yen ($1.66 billion) for the fiscal year ending March 2009. Toyota has never reported an operating loss since it began disclosing such figures in 1941. But it did have an operating loss in unofficial, internal calculations for the year ending March 1938 a year after the company was founded.
Operating income reflects a company's core business performance and does not include income taxes and certain other expenses. Last fiscal year, Toyota had an operating profit of 2.27 trillion yen.
Japan's top automaker also lowered its net profit forecast to just 50 billion yen ($555 million) for the year through March 2009 — a tiny fraction of the 1.7 trillion yen it earned last year.
Falling sales in the U.S. in the wake of the financial crisis have dealt a heavy blow to Japanese automakers. But Watanabe said that emerging markets, which had held up in the beginning, were also slowing down now.
The surging yen has battered profits as well by eroding overseas earnings when converted back to yen. The dollar has fallen to 13-year lows of about 90 yen recently.
This is the second time Toyota — which makes the popular Camry sedan and Prius gas-electric hybrid — has reduced it annual earnings forecast this year. Initially, it had been projecting 1.25 trillion yen ($13.9 billion) in net profit for the year through March 2009, but last month it reduced that to 550 billion yen ($6.1 billion) before chopping it further Monday.
It also lowered the number of vehicles it expects to sell globally this calendar year to 8.96 million, down 4 percent from a year ago, Watanabe told reporters.
Unlike previous years, he gave no goal for vehicle sales for 2009. He also gave no earnings forecast for the following fiscal year, ending March 2010, noting the company didn't have a sales plan yet.
Tsuyoshi Mochimaru, auto analyst for Barclays Capital in Tokyo, said that Toyota will likely continue to struggle next year because U.S. auto sales won't start recovering until toward the end of 2009, and the dollar may also lag.
"The problem is next year," he said, while adding that the latest revisions were within expectations. "It's unmistakable that things are extremely tough for Toyota."
In July, Toyota lowered its global vehicle sales target for 2008 to 9.5 million from the initial 9.85 million. Last year, it sold 9.37 million vehicles around the world.
Toyota also lowered its sales forecast for the fiscal year through March to 21.5 trillion yen ($239 billion), down about 18 percent from the previous fiscal year. It had earlier projected 23 trillion yen in sales.
Grabbing attention in recent years has been whether Toyota would dethrone Detroit-based General Motors Corp. as the world's No. 1 in annual vehicles sales.
But the mood was pure gloom at the president's annual year-end event.
Watanabe and other executives said production expansion plans and other investment will be on hold, including a new plant in the southern U.S. state of Mississippi and new vehicle plans in India, until the global market recovers.
Watanabe vowed Toyota would grow so lean it will be able to realize profitability even if its worldwide sales slide to as low as 7 million vehicles — what he called the basic "bottom line" for Toyota.
He promised his workers would offer "ideas as well as sweat" to steer the automaker through difficult times.
Mitsuo Kinoshita, a Toyota executive, said he hoped the results for the fiscal year through March would mark a bottom, with recovery expected the following fiscal year, partly boosted by a drop in material prices.
Soaring prices of steel and oil had been a negative for the automakers, but they have fallen back in recent months. Toyota has cut 130 billion yen ($1.4 billion) in costs for the fiscal year, through various measures, Kinoshita said.
But an unfavorable currency shifts will slash 200 billion yen ($2.2 billion) from its results for the fiscal year through March, while marketing activities eroded another 570 billion yen ($6.3 billion), according to Toyota.
Although plans to develop a diesel engine with Japanese partner Isuzu Motors will be stalled, Toyota will continue to invest in hybrids and other ecological technology, the executives said, as a long-term investment for growth.
Toyota's U.S. vehicles sales plunged by a third on year in November, when overall sales fell to their lowest level in more than 26 years. And there is little hope for a quick recovery as consumers hold back big purchases amid a serious downturn.
While Japan's automakers are in far better financial shape than the cash-strapped American counterparts, the global slowdown is hitting them hard.
"The crisis we face now is totally different from past crises," said Watanabe.
At a similar news conference last week from Honda Motor Co. President Takeo Fukui, Japan's No. 2 automaker also lowered profit and sales forecast and declined to give a vehicle sales goal for 2009.
Toyota said it will reduce thousands of temporary workers at its Japan plants, but said their full-time employees will have job security. Toyota is a relatively old-style Japanese corporation that offers lifetime employment, and in only recent years has hired and let go of temporary workers to adjust production.
The company's stock fell 5 yen, or 0.17 percent, to 2,895 yen.
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