Western banks adrift in China

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Western banks adrift in China

Post by ray245 »

IN THEIR darkest moments, global banks can find some solace in the thought that, regardless of how much they are to blame for the world’s financial woes, they remain essential to recovery in America and Europe. Their prospects in China, where an abrupt change in circumstances and mood has taken place during the past year, are much less sure. As in New York and London, lucrative underwriting assignments have disappeared. But in China the crisis is also serving as a superb pretext for hardening regulatory and competitive impediments to all but the state-controlled local financial institutions.

The immediate obstacle, say foreign bankers in China, is a reduction in the credit their operations can receive from Chinese banks (which are all, to a significant extent, controlled by the state). The scarcity of domestic funds is crippling because other rules hold foreign institutions back from injecting capital into their Chinese operations. The role they can play in the public capital markets also remains limited. Despite years of lobbying and some partial approvals, no international bank has gained even the basic right to underwrite and distribute securities on its own.

Making money for a non-Chinese financial institution in this environment means working around the edges. Activities based on economies of scale and tied to cross-border business can still pay their way. Foreign-exchange trading remains lucrative for a handful of global banks, for example. Even in a slump, there is money to be made processing transactions.

Two years ago it was plausible for the big investment banks to believe that this sort of activity would merely augment far richer opportunities that would come from China’s growth and the shift of its financing from the state banks to public markets. In 2006 and 2007 vast profits were made from taking Chinese companies public in Hong Kong—then believed to be a prelude to doing the same in Shanghai and Shenzhen—and from related businesses in brokerage and wealth management, says Matthew Austen of Oliver Wyman, a consultancy (see chart). Among the flurry of deals were the listings of three of the world’s largest financial institutions and one of its biggest industrial firms.

Extending that kind of success would have been a stretch in any event—the biggest deals were the first to be done—but the collapse in demand has gone far beyond the loss of particularly attractive candidates. Investment banks and accounting firms have spent the past year working frantically to prepare hundreds of Chinese companies for listings, only to find that the appetite for investment has crashed along with the price of China-related shares. There has not been a single offering in Shenzhen or Shanghai since September, and just one a month in Hong Kong. A senior executive at a global bank with a usually successful China business says no money has been made since June.

In the absence of demand in the public markets, private-equity players theoretically have the market to themselves, but most are locked into “pre-IPO strategic stakes” that in 2007 could be profitably flipped during a listing but now are frozen. Funds that do have surplus cash are holding it in expectation of redemptions from spooked clients, or redeploying it in America where a correct bet on a restructuring opportunity can make a career.

It is not all bad news. Some clever, cash-rich companies are taking advantage of an opportunity to buy shares in themselves, or in other companies. Sir Run Run Shaw, a 101-year-old media mogul, had hoped to sell his Hong Kong broadcasting company in the summer to a (briefly) rich Chinese property developer. On December 22nd, in the aftermath of the deal’s collapse, Sir Run Run bid to take private the 25% of the broadcaster’s parent that he does not already own. Numerous other deals of this sort are in the works, say local lawyers.

There are also renewed signs of interest in strategic deals. In July Carlyle, a private-equity firm, lost a three-year battle to acquire Xugong Group, a tractor company, in a move that was widely believed to reflect China’s growing resistance to outside involvement in its economy. But according to some bankers, the financial crisis has led regulators privately to suggest that such offers might now be viewed more positively. A critical test will be Coca-Cola’s $2.4 billion offer for Huiyan, the country’s largest juice company. If the deal is approved—no sure thing—it could herald others, which would naturally play to the strength of global banks.

China’s bankers and their regulators may also be facing disasters of their own, as the limitations inherent in a state-driven system become clearer. It is striking that the widespread closure of factories in southern China, the country’s principal manufacturing region, has led to no significant reports of credit deterioration. The only sign of apparent financial distress has been a largely unexplained capital infusion of $2.5 billion by the Bank of China into its Hong Kong-listed affiliate. The suspicion is that some, and maybe quite a lot, of the relative strength of the Chinese system reflects opacity rather than a more effective approach to allocating credit.

If so, then China may be due for its own round of financial restructuring and recapitalisation. It would once have been easy to argue that a market-driven system served up by big Western banks could do a better job of this than the government. When virtually every such institution has been given state support to stay in business, that case is much harder to make.
http://www.economist.com/research/artic ... d=12855427

Ok, given that the cause of this recession is due to a lack of regulations, why is those guys here calling for less regulations in regards to China?
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

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I have heard the China's financial sector managed to avoid most of the crap coming out of the US because for various reasons their banking sector is relatively simple compared to the US. In other words they didn't allow the shit that was allowed in the US, either by design or simply too slow to adopt "reforms". No doubt they will adjust their banking sector slower to try and avoid the same happening to their financial sector.

Generally capitalism "works" if its supported by good regulation, which doesn't seem to have happened in the US. China may have the opposite problem and has too much government control. Perhaps doing something a bit more in the middle might help. I suspect however those calling for more deregulation imagine US style level of deregulation.

That being said, an Australian bank IIRC its ANZ has been allowed to do business in China in conjunction with one of the big Chinese banks. So foreign banks are getting some business.
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

Post by HMS Vanguard »

Freeing up banking makes a lot more capital available for investment. I have my own views on the supposed 'free market' banking system we have here in the West, but even counting the recession and all of the problems it has caused, China is begging in its wildest dreams to be in the same position as the West. Their GDPPC is still something like a 1/10th of ours, depending on which figures you believe.
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

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There are lots of reasons why the West GDP is bigger than China's. Any one suggesting its current banking system with deregulation (which caused the economic crisis in the first place )is one of those reasons, must come up with a bit more justification than pointing to the GDP differences.

I am not saying China shouldn't loosen the controls of bit on its banking system, but if it had done the same as the US its financial sector would be in a worse position than it is now.
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

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Loosening up the banking system would weaken the control that the Communists have over the economy (actually not very much, but it's still somewhat respectable, which they certainly don't want to do that.
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

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It's not always a question of more or less regulation, it's usually a question of what those regulations do. It's more important that you have more good regulation and less bad regulation than having less regulation overall.
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

Post by HMS Vanguard »

mr friendly guy wrote:There are lots of reasons why the West GDP is bigger than China's. Any one suggesting its current banking system with deregulation (which caused the economic crisis in the first place )is one of those reasons, must come up with a bit more justification than pointing to the GDP differences.

I am not saying China shouldn't loosen the controls of bit on its banking system, but if it had done the same as the US its financial sector would be in a worse position than it is now.
Out of interest, which particular deregulations do you believe caused the economic crisis?
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Wasn't the Bank of China somewhat involved in investments related to the subprime nonsense? I never followed up but the bigger banks in China with an international presence had their asses kicked somewhat.
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

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HMS vanguard

Well I am no expert, it was pretty obvious one thing they did stuff up was lending money to people who couldn't afford it, then selling the mortgages as securities which were classed as "safe".

From that there is already two problems.

1) credit is too easy. I am not just talking about when buying houses (but clearly it precipitated the subprime crisis). To give you another unrelated example about how credit has become too easy, when some 20 year old earning 20 k a year can get credit to buy a 60 K car in my country, you know something is wrong.

2) How the hell these securities were ever considered safe in the first place? There were conflict of interest for the credit rating agencies involved. Ideally this is what regulation should avoid.

One way we could try and fix up problem one, is to limit what the banks can lend out. Obviously if a bank lent out all its money, it will have nothing to pay out customers withdrawing money, closing accounts etc. So by law banks are allowed to lend out a certain amount of money compared to what they have to keep in reserve. Simply lower this ratio, so banks lend out less (unless they can attract more depositors). With less fiat money circulating, the bust wouldn't be as bad as there would be less assets to write off (the assets being the loans to people with mortgages).

IIRC China instituted this step to curb any financial adventurism of its banks because they have been burnt investing in US securities. At least they didn't create their own version of subprime on top of that, so they haven't been burnt too bad (in comparison).

Problem 2 is simply a matter of regulation. Also a financial watch dog could be set up with teeth. In Australia we have one, but despite repeated warnings people don't necessarily listen (I am not talking about the current crisis here, but in regards to other dodgy investment schemes that prop up over the years).

Now, it ISN't all the fault of the finance industry. There was speculation into the property market and everything was good until the bubble burst. People who borrowed too optimistically also have to shoulder the blame despite the whining about how the banks tricked them because banks being experts knew best , blah blah blah. However better regulation would have mitigated the effects we are feeling now.
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

Post by HMS Vanguard »

mr friendly guy wrote:HMS vanguard

Well I am no expert, it was pretty obvious one thing they did stuff up was lending money to people who couldn't afford it, then selling the mortgages as securities which were classed as "safe".
I always wonder when people say this, especially as they almost always then condemn 'greedy bankers', why would a greedy person willingly give his money to someone he knows can't ever repay it? Why don't greedy bankers just throw billion dollar notes onto the fire? Universal home ownership, and especially granting mortgages to people whose credit history doesn't justify it to people putting their own money on the line, was of course a government, regulatory policy. Most of the sub-prime mortgages were simply sold on by their initial issuers to the pseudo-state corporations Fannie and Freddie. Ofc, the banks bought the repackaged securities, but only on the basis that they knew the regulatory system would bail them out if it went tits up. And guess what happened?
From that there is already two problems.

1) credit is too easy. I am not just talking about when buying houses (but clearly it precipitated the subprime crisis). To give you another unrelated example about how credit has become too easy, when some 20 year old earning 20 k a year can get credit to buy a 60 K car in my country, you know something is wrong.
The price of credit is set by the Fed, a regulatory body.
2) How the hell these securities were ever considered safe in the first place? There were conflict of interest for the credit rating agencies involved. Ideally this is what regulation should avoid.
Good question. Clearly it was a case of heads we win, tails you lose in terms of banks being guaranteed a bailout if it went wrong (and to keep all the profits if it didn't), but nonetheless others also bought into the feeding frenzy. Then again, they were categorised as safe by the ratings agencies, who must have had some reason to do so, since they didn't get everything else they categorise massively wrong.
One way we could try and fix up problem one, is to limit what the banks can lend out. Obviously if a bank lent out all its money, it will have nothing to pay out customers withdrawing money, closing accounts etc. So by law banks are allowed to lend out a certain amount of money compared to what they have to keep in reserve. Simply lower this ratio, so banks lend out less (unless they can attract more depositors). With less fiat money circulating, the bust wouldn't be as bad as there would be less assets to write off (the assets being the loans to people with mortgages).
I largely agree with this, though. In fact, I'm not convinced that fractional reserve banking is at all legitimate.
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

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HMS Vanguard wrote: I always wonder when people say this, especially as they almost always then condemn 'greedy bankers', why would a greedy person willingly give his money to someone he knows can't ever repay it? Why don't greedy bankers just throw billion dollar notes onto the fire?
Do you really want to know the answer? It took me a while to wrap my head around this. But here goes.

Our money is no longer match to gold, so its pretty much fiat money. What that means for banks is, when they lend out money, say $1000 being lent to me, that $1000 has just been created as numbers stored on a computer. For the banks perspective its an asset since I owe them $1000. Despite just being created out of thin air, that money counts as legal tender by government legislation, so in effect money is created in the form of debt. Note this generally isn't a problem for the bank as long as I can repay my debt, otherwise this "asset" becomes worthless.

Therefore from the banks perspective, the more they lend, the more money they make. And I am not talking about interest from the loan, the loan itself counts as an asset and comes into existence the moment its made out to borrowers.

It seems to me, the lending practices of banks, eschew long term planning for short term gains. And in the short term, the more they lend, the more they make. And it stays good as long as house prices continue to go up. This of course lasts until they find out people can't pay back and their "asset" (ie loans) become worthless. Then its when they regret not planning for the long term, but then its not the first time people have been short sighted. *shrugs*
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

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HMS Vanguard wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:There are lots of reasons why the West GDP is bigger than China's. Any one suggesting its current banking system with deregulation (which caused the economic crisis in the first place )is one of those reasons, must come up with a bit more justification than pointing to the GDP differences.

I am not saying China shouldn't loosen the controls of bit on its banking system, but if it had done the same as the US its financial sector would be in a worse position than it is now.
Out of interest, which particular deregulations do you believe caused the economic crisis?
The culmination would be 1999, the Commodity Futures Modernization Act. It's a remarkable piece of legislation. It pre-empts all derivatives from state regulation, excludes the from SEC regulation. Those two alone created a Sixty-Two Trillion Dollar game of roulette. By the models everyone believed, it had a million and one numbers. The million were 'Keep your money, minus the fees'. The one was 'Economic collapse'. As This shows, it did turn up on one eventually.

It removed barriers between heavily regulated, FDIC-backed banks and investment firms, set there after the Great Depression after, guess what, banks got too far into selling exotic bonds and equities and things went to hell.

What else... It removed regulation of over-the-counter energy sales and online energy sales. Enron abused this and it all turned into flames and despair.

CDS' turned into a massive liability, banks which became able to go into the high risk business failed, Enron failed..

But hey. It's just deregulation.
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

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HMS Vanguard

I will elaborate a bit more on points I didn't answer earlier
HMS Vanguard wrote: The price of credit is set by the Fed, a regulatory body.
True, but I was thinking mainly of adjusting the Federal reserve ratio rather than adjusting interest rates. The other thing which I didn't mention earlier is to legislate such that home buyers must provide a certain percentage of the loan up front as their initial deposit.

Normally failure to do say 20% would attract mortgage insurance, but people didn't care. In fact some lenders in my country (even with credit tightening) are offering people to use government grants (which they give to first home buyers) to pay for the initial deposit. In effect these receipients have not saved and have demonstrated no ability to save and some financial columnists have queried whether such people would be able to pay back.

Getting back to the topic about China's financial sector, they recently had to do the opposite, and decrease the amount people have to provide in the initial deposit in a bid to boost their housing sector. However the % was still high compared to my country, but I can't for the life of me recall the exact number.

Having banks lend 90-80% of the loan instead of 105% (yeah that happened, presumably the 5% is used on renovations) means that a) the person has shown some ability to save and is more likely to be able to repay and b) if it turns to shit, the banks lose less money.

And now we are seeing more foreclosures. It doesn't look like it will get as bad as in the US though because we only had a small subprime section. I believe we called it the No Docs or no frills sector.
Then again, they were categorised as safe by the ratings agencies, who must have had some reason to do so, since they didn't get everything else they categorise massively wrong.
I believe conflict of interest explains why they screwed up quite well. If you think they had a good reason for classifying these securities as safe when even a layman like me can see so called NINJA* Loans are bad, I suggest you present it.

*NINJA = No Income, No Job & Assets
I largely agree with this, though. In fact, I'm not convinced that fractional reserve banking is at all legitimate.
Its legitimate in so far as that its the way things are done. What do you mean by legitimate, eg do you mean in the sense there is a better method?
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Re: Western banks adrift in China

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HMS Vanguard wrote:I always wonder when people say this, especially as they almost always then condemn 'greedy bankers', why would a greedy person willingly give his money to someone he knows can't ever repay it? Why don't greedy bankers just throw billion dollar notes onto the fire? Universal home ownership, and especially granting mortgages to people whose credit history doesn't justify it to people putting their own money on the line, was of course a government, regulatory policy.
You're full of shit. Did the regulators set a quota? Did the government say you must lend to these people? Did anyone even provide incentives to lend to deadbeats?
Most of the sub-prime mortgages were simply sold on by their initial issuers to the pseudo-state corporations Fannie and Freddie. Ofc, the banks bought the repackaged securities, but only on the basis that they knew the regulatory system would bail them out if it went tits up. And guess what happened?
You're full of shit again. They packaged and sold the securities for 3 reasons; the get a fee from it, it makes their balance sheets look better, and they get an additional revunue stream from the securities.
Then again, they were categorised as safe by the ratings agencies, who must have had some reason to do so, since they didn't get everything else they categorise massively wrong.

Can you say "buy a rating?" I knew you could.
The price of credit is set by the Fed, a regulatory body.
Bzzzt! The Fed is not a regulatory body, nor does it set the price of credit. The Fed can influence the price of credit through jawboning, setting interest rates, and attempting to control those rates through open market operations. The market sets the final price of credit, not the Fed. If you don't believe me take a look at the effective funds rate versus the official Fed funds rate for the final quarter of last year. Whoops. Shit happens when the Fed runs out of funds and can't control TOMOs.
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