Transit police execute rider

[Bilbo]

Unless this guy has a very well off family or generous friends I do not see it going quite this far. The defense you are suggesting sounds like it would be very expensive. How is a transit officer going to afford this? I doubt the police union is going to eat the cost for this level of defense. I just don't see this guy affording Johnny Cochrane.

He doesn't have to. We're not talking the legal equivalent of rocket science here. Any common or garden lawyer should be able to throw up enough dust to thoroughly confuse the issue. Hiring an expert witness for a day on the stand will be around US$500 - 600 per hour - less than a couple of grand in total. Compared with his total legal fees, that's chickenfeed. Chummie is going to be hurting financially anyway, a little more won't make much of a difference.

True. I was thinking of the other actions generally taken to sway a case like this. To use OJ as an example how much in lawyer fees did OJ pay for the weeks upon weeks (or was it months) for the jury selection alone? How well is this type of maneuvering going to work if the defendent does not have the money to pay his lawyer to fight whatever length of time is needed to get basically a hand-picked jury.

[CmdrWilkens]

My *****personal opinion***** on what happened is this. My experience of Transit Cops is that they have inferiority complexes due to the perception that their status is a lot lower than mainstream police. He saw the incident going down, saw a chance to make like what he perceived as being "a real cop" and drew his gun to stick it in the back of the victim's head. That's when he had his ND.

Now assuming that there was no ND, but the whole event was still caught on cellphone video like it was. Odds are this cop get suspended and potentially fired from his position. While I am not a cop and have no desire to be one I cannot imagine a single situation where it would be proper for a member of law enforcement to draw their weapon and place it execution style on the back of the head of an unarmed civilian/suspect.

I don't know about fired but there would be some sort of administrative action to punish him for such an action. Likely as not it would amount to either reduction in grade or pay but generally speaking if nobody gets hurt then serious ramifications are not likely to be found. Had there been no ND then this would likely just have been a brief local grumble about excessive force in arrests followed by limited rebuke of the officer and by this time everything would be back as it was.

[Kanastrous]

Look at it this way, if Chummie had put his gun to the head of the perp, released the safety catch and then pulled the trigger, we wouldn't be having the murder/manslaughter disagreement. It would be clearly a case of premeditated murder. Without that safety catch step, there's reasonable doubt.

We might see PD's across the country replacing their Glocks, if there's sufficient appearance that arming your officers with Glocks creates opportunity for that kind of liability.

[Vain]

Glocks are pretty cheap by handgun standards; that's why Agencies are drawn to them (standard definition of a Cop Gun, carried a lot, fired almost never so cost is a big factor). I think they're thoroughly nasty pieces of kit and I don't trust them. I do trust my M1911A1.

I must say, you have remarkable taste. I find myself consistently agreeing with you whenever you see fit to express your opinions about firearms or automobiles. Makes me wonder what else we'd agree on.

For what it's worth, I learned on the 1911. It's what my father carried in Vietnam, and has always been my pistol of choice.

[Kanastrous]

H&K USP, .40, baby.

Can't stop pimping it.

[Knife]

H&K USP, .40, baby.

Can't stop pimping it.

I'm a big USP fan too, though the .45 match is better.

[Terralthra]

H&K USP, .40, baby.

Can't stop pimping it.

I'm a big USP fan too, though the .45 match is better.

I'm with Knife. the USP .45 Match is a lovely pistol.

[Kanastrous]

Got mine before the match versions were available (or at least, before I'd heard about them).

Maybe a future acquisition...although I have three handgun chamberings floating around already, and am not *that* eager to add a fourth...

[JCady]

I'm fond of Springfield Armory's new XD(M), although I'm waiting for them to come out with one in .45 ACP. Right now the (M) are only available in .40 S&W and 9x19mm.

[Kanastrous]

There are very good loadings available in .40 S&W, and if you are willing to reload you can tune it even further to match your needs. I have nothing against .45 ACP (a friend has an SA M1911A1 set up for match shooting, and it's a total pleasure to shoot with) but it seems to me that .40 does everything I'd ask of .45 ACP, without further multiplying the ammo types I have to keep on hand.

[JCady]

There are very good loadings available in .40 S&W, and if you are willing to reload you can tune it even further to match your needs. I have nothing against .45 ACP (a friend has an SA M1911A1 set up for match shooting, and it's a total pleasure to shoot with) but it seems to me that .40 does everything I'd ask of .45 ACP, without further multiplying the ammo types I have to keep on hand.

The primary reason I favor .45 ACP is California's stupid 10-round limit. If I'm stuck with ten, I'd prefer for them to be ten BIG ones -- my "ideal" defensive sidearm would be an XD(M) Compact with 10 rounds of .45ACP.

[Kanastrous]

I'm not sure what I would need ten rounds of anything for, in most conceivable self-defense situations, but I'd have to agree that I'd rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them...

[Coyote]

I was going to get a Glock in .40 S&W, but I have to admit the new Springfields caught my eye. Are they really as good as the Glock? The guy at Cabela's said that "If you like Glock, you'll like Springfield Armory as much, or better" but of course he's trying to sell stuff.

I'm a big fan of Glock, and like their ruggedness and simplicity, but I can see where people can dislike them. I've gotten used to Glocks over the years (shooting the Glock-17 series regularly since 1987) so I don't have the aversion to them some do... but I'm also open to new things.

[Kanastrous]

My aversion to Glocks is based upon the limitation to DAO mode, the trigger pull (part and parcel, really) plus the shape and texture of the grips is not a comfortable fit, for me. Plus, all the Glocks I've fired have a pretty snappish, violent action compared to my USP or even most 1911A1-type pistols I've used.

But that's all personal taste; it doesn't surprise me that there are people who swear by Glock products.

[gizmojumpjet]

I have an XD40 and I like it. I like the loaded chamber indicator and the firing pin indicator as well as the grip safety and grip angle, which (I've read) is closer to the 1911 grip angle. Also, it's just cooler looking that a Glock, for whatever that's worth (nothing), and Chev Chelios carried an XD in Crank, so there's that going for them too.

The finish sucks on mine and it actually got a little rust on the slide when it got wet somehow while sitting in a drawer in my house, but I think they might have moved to a different and more durable finish. I'd hit the XDTalk forums to verify that if you're seriously considering buying one.

I think the biggest drawback about them is that if you need work done on it you have to send it back in to Springfield Armory for repair since SA doesn't sell parts for them, whereas parts for Glocks are readily available. For this reason alone, my next gun purchase will probably be some flavor of Glock or a maybe a Sig. I've also read some rumblings recently in the TFR forums over on SomethingAwful about them not being as durable in the long run as Glocks are known to be.

I'd certainly rent one and try it out if I were you. I certainly don't regret buying one.

[Kanastrous]

The XD40 is the Americanized P99, right?

[gizmojumpjet]

No, it's a rebranding of a pistol that used to be called the HS2000 or something and it's made in Croatia.

[Alyeska]

The Glock is a fine pistol. Its cheap, but its also reliable and very accurate. It can eat through amunition that other pistols balk at. It is also as accurate as many match pistols. The particular design of the upper slide and the sights give it equal accuracy to that of most M1911s. It is a good pistol. Like any weapon, you need proper training and handling to use.

To each his own I guess. But, I've never found a Glock I liked, and they've always given me trouble. My SIGs and M1911 consistently outshoot them and simply "fit" me better. On the other hands, handguns are intensely personal things so what one person finds acceptable another regards as anathema. I will admit to prejudice though, the person who taught me to handle hand guns treats Glocks with what can only be described as scalding contempt.

I have a Glock 22, a Kimber Stainless II 5" M1911, and a Springfield Armory XD 9. All good pistols for different reasons.

[CmdrWilkens]

Not to play mod but real quick:

1) The gun discussion isn't really relevant to the main discussion outside of gun safety
2) We probably won't really have any more meat to chew on until this goes to trial
3) I think this thread (up to about pg 11) might be worth considering for famous threads just in terms of the reaction and some of the rather finer points made in terms of how police work and the finer points of law surrounding it.

[Glocksman]

Glocks aren't as bad as the Type 94 but the lack of a safety is still a major problem. Look at it this way, if Chummie had put his gun to the head of the perp, released the safety catch and then pulled the trigger, we wouldn't be having the murder/manslaughter disagreement.

What if Chummie used a Smith Model 66 revolver?
The revolver equivalent of releasing the safety catch in this scenario would be cocking the hammer and then pointing it at the perp.
In that instance, you do have an honest to God 'hair trigger'.
Of course the prosecution would then ask 'Why the fuck did you cock it to begin with?'

I'm sure one option his defense lawyer is considering is to blame Glock for making a gun with a 'hair trigger' and no safety.
I bring up revolvers because a lot of LE agencies that issue Glocks order them with a New York trigger spring module that markedly increases the trigger pull weight.
Glock developed the NY trigger module because the NYPD had a shitload of ND's after switching from Smith and Colt revolvers to Glocks.

If his lawyer throws up the 'hair trigger' defense, it'll be interesting to see whether or not the BART Glocks have New York trigger springs installed.

[Death from the Sea]

I'm sure one option his defense lawyer is considering is to blame Glock for making a gun with a 'hair trigger' and no safety.
I bring up revolvers because a lot of LE agencies that issue Glocks order them with a New York trigger spring module that markedly increases the trigger pull weight.
Glock developed the NY trigger module because the NYPD had a shitload of ND's after switching from Smith and Colt revolvers to Glocks.

If his lawyer throws up the 'hair trigger' defense, it'll be interesting to see whether or not the BART Glocks have New York trigger springs installed.

sounds like NYPD does not train its officers INDEXING their trigger finger.