Jews Outraged by Holocaust-Denying Bishop

[Thanas]

Damm it, Time ran out for editing it.

Here is a video with his words.

"I believe the historical evidence is strongly against 6 million jews were concerned.[...]As far as I have studies the evidence, people are against what is widely believed to be quote, the Holocaust, unquote, 300.000 jews were killed in Nazi camps, but not one was killed in gas chambers." His source was Fred Leuchter, who did a (now refuted) "analysis" claiming that the cyanide concentration at Auschwitz was insufficient to kill people.

He also is a 9/11 truther, claiming that the Bush administration engineered 9/11.

[Kitsune]

Same arguments already refuted in "Denying the Holocaust : the growing assault on truth and memory" by Lipstadt, Deborah E.

He is quoting the same expert who was proven to not have the credentials he speaks of and seems to be an expert at nothing.

I wonder how Emperor Solo on Space Battles would react to this thread....he was an incredible Catholic Apologist. The church could do no wrong.

[CJvR]

Well from a religous point of view their opinion on the Holocaust is utterly irrelevant. It is not what they got excommunicated for. That they deny that it is a fact and that it happened hardly matters for their inclusion into the church, only their observance to correct religous doctrine will matter. Hell the church spent centuries denying facts, why should they suddenly care about an opinion on a non-religous matter?

[CarsonPalmer]

Same arguments already refuted in "Denying the Holocaust : the growing assault on truth and memory" by Lipstadt, Deborah E.

He is quoting the same expert who was proven to not have the credentials he speaks of and seems to be an expert at nothing.

I wonder how Emperor Solo on Space Battles would react to this thread....he was an incredible Catholic Apologist. The church could do no wrong.

I might have to do a little bit of apologetics myself here. This particular bishop has not been in Church control for years, ever since the Society of St. Pius X was excommunicated. It was when he was out of the control of the Church that he began his holocaust denial.

The lifting of the excommunications has nothing to do with him personally, only with the society, of which he is not the head. Now that he's back in the Church fold, there are actually people who can discipline him and make him shut up.

He's not excused, because he's a nut, but its important to remember that the SSPX was not a part of the Catholic Church was the past twenty years.

[hongi]

What's the deal with the SSPX anyway? Is Pope Benedict trying to return them back to the fold?

[Thanas]

The lifting of the excommunications has nothing to do with him personally, only with the society, of which he is not the head.

He is however one of four Bishops who were consecrated by Lefebvre and is definitely among the three most influential figures in the society, given that he was part of the delegation that met with Benedict.

Now that he's back in the Church fold, there are actually people who can discipline him and make him shut up.

That is bound to work really well, considering they had to excommunicate the guy the last time they tried to make him shut up.

[CarsonPalmer]

The lifting of the excommunications has nothing to do with him personally, only with the society, of which he is not the head.

He is however one of four Bishops who were consecrated by Lefebvre and is definitely among the three most influential figures in the society, given that he was part of the delegation that met with Benedict.

That is true.

Now that he's back in the Church fold, there are actually people who can discipline him and make him shut up.

That is bound to work really well, considering they had to excommunicate the guy the last time they tried to make him shut up.

He's never been a bishop in the Church before. Lefebvre was excommunicated for consecrating the four bishops in the first place.

[Jade Falcon]

Yeah, just noticed that now after thinking I misspelt his name. Still got his comeuppance, albeit, later.

It was Martin Bormann who was trien in absentia at Nuremberg.

I thought at first upon reading the first parts of the article that the numbers were in question. After all, were 6 million Jews gassed, since there was a multitude of other methods tried before the large scale gas chambers including shootings, the use of explosives (see Auschwitz, the Nazis and the Final Solution), and carbon monoxide vans as well as hideous medical experiments.

However, to deny the gassings altogether is ludicrous. That documentary I referenced featured a junior SS NCO who sorted the money that was taken at Auschwitz and even he said that people who deny what happened were basically lunatics.

[Thanas]

That is bound to work really well, considering they had to excommunicate the guy the last time they tried to make him shut up.

He's never been a bishop in the Church before. Lefebvre was excommunicated for consecrating the four bishops in the first place.

To be fair though, if he wasn't obeying the will of the pope when he was just a lowly priest, what makes you think he will do so when he is in a position of considerable more power and the pope needs him to fully reintegrate the rest of SSPX?

[CarsonPalmer]

That is bound to work really well, considering they had to excommunicate the guy the last time they tried to make him shut up.

He's never been a bishop in the Church before. Lefebvre was excommunicated for consecrating the four bishops in the first place.

To be fair though, if he wasn't obeying the will of the pope when he was just a lowly priest, what makes you think he will do so when he is in a position of considerable more power and the pope needs him to fully reintegrate the rest of SSPX?

That's true. I imagine the pope could always hang the threat of excommunication over his head, but that didn't stop him before.

Interestingly, the SSPX is not out of the woods yet, and might get themselves excommunicated all over again. They wanted a decree from Benedict that JP II's excommunications were not valid due to "a defect in form", and that doesn't look likely to happen. Benedict only lifted the excommunications, he didn't declare them null and void. They might wind up protesting so loudly they get the boot again.

[Posner]

They wanted a decree from Benedict that JP II's excommunications were not valid due to "a defect in form", and that doesn't look likely to happen

Lol, to be fair, since he wasn't speaking ex cathedra, typos on the intraoffice excommunication memo are important.

[Kanastrous]

So the news just came over the radio that the de-excommunification or whatever just came through. Really, I just found myself thinking that on balance it's a good thing.

I prefer that the Church show its true colors for all to see.

[CarsonPalmer]

I wouldn't be surprised if the SSPX gets themselves excommunicated again (or at least this bishop in particular. Williamson is an arrogant ass whose known for blaming 9/11 on the United States (which is in no way representative of the Catholic Church), and ripping every Catholic who didn't revolt against JPII and join the SSPX.

He's even targeted specific orders of Catholic priests in the past, particularly the Fraternal Society of St. Peter. The story of that is very strange. The SSPX started as a valid order of Catholic priests, like the Jesuits or the Dominicans, but as they got more and more out there, JPII disbanded the society and specifically told LeFebvre not to consecrate any of their priests as bishops. LeFebvre did so, bringing the excommunication down on his and their heads. A group of priests in the SSPX felt this was going too far, and denounced the society, petitioning the Pope to found the FSSP (Fraternal Society of St. Peter), which was to be specifically devoted to providing Latin Masses for those Catholics who preferred that form of the Mass. Williamson called them traitors for "abandoning Church tradition".

The SSPX itself actually had a schism of its own. After LeFebvre consecrated the new bishops, he took the position that the SSPX was actually being obedient to the Pope, and that he just didn't realize it (which is why they wanted the excommunications declared void from the start, as opposed to being merely lifted). The radical members of the SSPX disagreed, and took the position that there was no valid pope at all, and that the Church had been infected by "the smoke of Satan", as they put it. Wanting to travel even farther back in time, these bundles of joy started the Society of St. Pius V (the SSPV), and split off from the Church completely.

These guys, like the other sedevanctivists, are generally the laughingstock of the Church (Although if you run into a group called the Old Catholic Church, they are an entirely different kettle of fish).

[Kanastrous]

What relationship - if any - do they have to the Holy Family Catholic Church (Mel Gibson's sect)?

[CarsonPalmer]

What relationship - if any - do they have to the Holy Family Catholic Church (Mel Gibson's sect)?

SSPX or SSPV?

The SSPX aren't sedevanctivists, so they don't have any connection to any groups like that. They argued all along that they were obeying the Pope, and that he just didn't realize it.

The SSPV are sedevanctivists, but I don't think they are connected to any other sedes. Once those groups get out in the open, they all have their strange quibbles. For example, the SSPV will only use missals from before 1962, because they feel that's the year the Church became corrupted (the reasoning they use is that in 1962, St. Joseph's name was added to the Eucharistic Prayer. Of all things, they pick that as the tipping point. I have no idea why.) Most of the sede groups feel the Church was valid up until Vatican II, so I don't think many of them are connected to the SSPV.

[Tiriol]

Sorry for thread necromancy, but the Vatican has ordered the bishop in question to publicly recant his views on the Holocaust. Source is here.

'Holocaust bishop' told to recant

The Vatican has ordered an ultra-traditionalist bishop to publicly recant his views denying the Holocaust.

A statement said Bishop Richard Williamson must "unequivocally" distance himself from his statements to serve in the Roman Catholic Church.
The Vatican also said that the Pope had not been aware of the bishop's views when he lifted excommunications on him and three other bishops last month.
Earlier, a senior cardinal acknowledged the Vatican had mishandled the issue.
The Pope's decision, ending Bishop Williamson's excommunication on an unrelated matter, has caused a bitter row, as he does not believe that six million Jews were gassed by the Nazis in World War II.

'Clearer rejection'

On Tuesday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel urged the Pope to make a clearer rejection of Holocaust denials.
"This is not just a matter, in my opinion, for the Christian, Catholic and Jewish communities in Germany but the Pope and the Vatican should clarify unambiguously that there can be no denial," she said.
Cardinal Walter Kasper, who is in charge of relations between the Roman Catholic Church and Jewish leaders, admitted different parts of the Vatican administration had not talked enough to each other, and failed to check where problems could arise.
Bishop Williamson - who was ex-communicated 20 years ago on an unrelated matter - has apologised for stirring controversy, but not repudiated his views.
Last November, the British-born bishop angered Jewish people across the world when he told Swedish TV: "I believe there were no gas chambers [during World War II]."
He said he believed that up to "300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps but none of them by gas chambers".
He is one of four bishops, who are members of the Society of Pius X, whose excommunication was lifted last month by the Pope.
The Vatican's statement on Wednesday also said that the society must recognise the reformist Vatican II Council of 1962-65 and the popes who followed it.

[CarsonPalmer]

The ball is back in the court of the SSPX. This is their chance to show their true colors. I doubt they'll play ball, though.