Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
SilverWingedSeraph
Jedi Knight
Posts: 965
Joined: 2007-02-15 11:56am
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Contact:

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

Darth Wong wrote:As for his guilt, should someone who believes God told him to commit murder really be considered not guilty by reason of insanity? He may have been nuts, but he still understood what he was doing, and to whom he was doing it, and that it was murder, and that it was illegal. The 9/11 hijackers thought God was telling them to commit murder too; if they survived, would they also have been not guilty by reason of insanity?
A psychiatrist called by the prosecution Wednesday testified that Li cut up McLean's body because he believed that he would come back to life and take revenge.
Does that sound like someone who understood what he was doing, and who he was doing it to? The article states he thought the person was a demon, and his inhibited thinking was clearly far from "I understand that I am commiting murder". I wouldn't compare it to the 9/11 hijackings. That was a case of religious brainwashing. This was the case of significant and real mental illness that adversely altered his perception of the world. My aunt has schizophrenia, and when she's not on her medication, she does some weird shit, but she believes it to be perfectly normal and harmless.

This guy is a major risk to society, and as a result of that, he will probably be kept in that institution for the rest of his life, recieving treatment, because I sincerely doubt that he will ever recover enough to be safe to let out.
  /l、
゙(゚、 。 7
 l、゙ ~ヽ
 じしf_, )ノ
User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Bounty »

As for his guilt, should someone who believes God told him to commit murder really be considered not guilty by reason of insanity? He may have been nuts, but he still understood what he was doing, and to whom he was doing it, and that it was murder, and that it was illegal. The 9/11 hijackers thought God was telling them to commit murder too; if they survived, would they also have been not guilty by reason of insanity?
The hijackers may have thought what they did was right, but they were also aware that what they did was wrong by the laws of the nation in which they carried it out; after all, that's the entire point of a terror attack. Being aware that what you do is an act of wrongdoing on any level seems like a pretty big difference between the religious fanatic and the truly mentally ill.
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by mr friendly guy »

This guy is clearly psychotic (if the article is accurate). His judgment is clearly impaired, but short of developing the ability to experience what he is feeling, its difficult if not impossible to say how bad the impairment is, and whether its enough to stop him realising what he was doing is wrong.

That being said, until we develop a treatment which manages to cure him, he should be locked up to protect society at large, psychosis or no psychosis. I am not willing to take the risk.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Flagg wrote: Because I believe the reason for prison is public safety and rehabilitation. I believe that people can in fact better themselves and become valuable members of society. Is that the case for everyone? No, of course not. But if someone is no longer a danger to society what is the point of further imprisoning them beyond sadism?
Since this persons mental illness cannot be cured then he will always be a danger to society. Now it's been beaten to death that he'll most likely never be released. However, unless his doctors can be absolutely certain that there is no possibility that he'll do this or anything like it again then he shouldn't be released.

Also, on a personal note if you intentionally kill someone regardless of if it's a crime of passion or whatever you should lose your freedom forever and in some cases your life. I think this way because it hardly seems like justice to me when you've taken the life of another and change the lives of that persons family members, but society gives you a second shot. That other person who was killed doesn't get a second shot, and neither should the offender.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Darth Wong »

SilverWingedSeraph wrote:
A psychiatrist called by the prosecution Wednesday testified that Li cut up McLean's body because he believed that he would come back to life and take revenge.
Does that sound like someone who understood what he was doing, and who he was doing it to?
Yes. It also sounds like a lunatic who thinks that human beings can actually be demons in disguise, but that doesn't change the fact that he knew he was breaking the law. You're still employing the "he's clearly nuts therefore he doesn't understand anything" assumption.
The article states he thought the person was a demon, and his inhibited thinking was clearly far from "I understand that I am commiting murder".
Bullshit. There are millions of people out there who think humans can be possessed by demons. The fact that someone thinks someone else is a demon does not automatically mean that he should be considered incapable of realizing he's committing murder.
I wouldn't compare it to the 9/11 hijackings. That was a case of religious brainwashing. This was the case of significant and real mental illness that adversely altered his perception of the world.
You have not established that "altered" automatically means "did not even realize it was illegal to chop someone's head off".
My aunt has schizophrenia, and when she's not on her medication, she does some weird shit, but she believes it to be perfectly normal and harmless.
Red-herring.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by FSTargetDrone »

More about Li:
'GOD CHOOSE ME TO KILL'

Vincent Li's descent into mental illness was so gradual, few could comprehend what was happening

By Dan Lett , Winnipeg Free Press

March 5, 2009

In 2004, Vincent Li’s life began to take a turn for the worse. Li told psychiatrists he began to hear voices. His wife, Ana, noted that, in the summer of 2004, Li would go several days without sleep or food.

In 2004, Vincent Li’s life began to take a turn for the worse. Li told psychiatrists he began to hear voices. His wife, Ana, noted that, in the summer of 2004, Li would go several days without sleep or food.
Photograph by: Fred Greenslade, Reuters

WINNIPEG — Vincent Li is a man who was notable only for his lack of notoriety, who struggled to make a new life for himself and his wife in Canada, and whose descent into mental illness was so gradual, few could comprehend what was happening. And fewer still could believe what ultimately happened.

Li was born April 30, 1968, in Dandong City, in northeastern China, the son of a custodian father and a mathematics teacher mother. He has an older brother and a younger sister and his family life presents as unremarkable: No history of abuse, chronic illness or dysfunction. Save for one maternal uncle, there was no history of mental illness.

Li was born one month premature but given the rustic Chinese health-care system, he was not incubated. His family reported he was a "very fragile," and sickly until his early teens. His father, Hongwen Li, told one of the psychiatrists who assessed his son, that Li was about two years late in developmental milestones such as talking and walking. As a result, he started school at age nine, two years later than normal.

Even so, he did well in high school, and went on to study automotive engineering in central China. He graduated with a four-year bachelor of science degree. He went to work in a factory in Beijing, where he met a woman he would later marry. Li and the woman known in court documents as Ana were married in June 1995.

In an interview with Ontario psychiatrist Dr. Jonathan Rootenberg, Ana said life in China was simple: "Going to work, eating and sleeping, mostly just working." Both his family and his ex-wife said Li displayed no clear signs of mental illness. His father reported he was restless, "always moving around." His wife said he was "stubborn and nervous." Everyone said Li never demonstrated any violent tendencies, or problems with alcohol or drug abuse.

The couple immigrated to Canada in 2001. Li and Ana's new life in Canada was typical of the kind of experience many immigrants faced — over-educated and under-employed. Despite having a post-secondary education, Li was never able to find more than menial jobs. Over a four-year period, Li worked at a McDonald's restaurant, then at a warehouse as a general labourer. He would eventually take a position as custodian at Grant Memorial Baptist Church, where he also worshipped.

In 2004, Li's life began to take a turn for the worse. Li told psychiatrists he began to hear voices. Ana noted that in the summer of 2004, Li would go several days without sleep or food. "He cried a lot and told me he saw God and I thought he was so tired so I bought him sleeping pills from Shoppers Drug Mart but that didn't work too well."

Ana said Li admitted he was hearing voices. Li recalled that in those early days of his illness, the voices provided him with "direction and guidance." Friends urged her to get Li to a doctor as soon as possible but Ana said Li was stubborn and fearful of Western medicine. "When he doesn't agree with people, he doesn't listen, even to me, and I'm important in his life."

Stress on the marriage culminated in the spring of 2005 and the couple separated in March. Shortly after that event, Li moved to Thompson, Man.

Li would later claim that he left for the north because he wanted to buy land, but upon arriving in Thompson, he realized he had no money and took a job. Over the next four months, he worked at a Wal-Mart performing overnight maintenance.

He returned to Winnipeg in June 2005, where he pumped gas and worked part-time at a Tim Horton's. However, it was during this period he suffered his first mental breakdown.

In September 2005, again without warning, Li set off for Toronto. "I thought it would be easy to find a job in Toronto," Li recalled. "I failed to find a job, then God's voice told me to go back to Winnipeg. I'm not sure if God's voice told me to walk back, so I started walking on the highway; I threw out my luggage after God told me to do that."

Ana would receive a call from police in September 2005 indicating that Li had been picked up walking along Highway 427 north of Toronto, completely disoriented and appearing as if he had not eaten or slept in several days. He was taken to a psychiatric facility in Toronto. Doctors suggested Li remain in the facility for at least a month for a full psychiatric assessment.

The circumstances surrounding Li's release from the Toronto hospital are unclear. Li claimed he "escaped" and there is no discharge note on his chart. It is now believed he refused treatment and left against the advice of his doctor. He was prescribed medication for his condition, but he was never formally diagnosed with a mental disorder.

Upon his return from Toronto, Ana said Li "looked horrible, so skinny, like a homeless person." Li asked Ana to buy him a one-way ticket to China.

In China, Li's parents sent him to a physician who, his father recalled, declared that he was fit. Despite this, his father indicated Li was irritable and combative. Li could not find steady work in China because it seemed that he could not do any one job for more than a few days at a time. Ana would rejoin Li in China for a short time, but only to formally divorce him. She returned to Canada.

Li would return to Canada about one month after his wife, taking up residence in Toronto. Ana received several emotional phone calls from her ex-husband, in which he expressed great sadness at the dissolution of their marriage. He also complained he was having trouble finding work. She invited him to live with her, which he did.

Less than a year later, however, Li moved to Edmonton. Ana told psychiatrists that several weeks after he went West, she learned he had not been able to find a job and had been living in his car. She sent him money and then moved to be with him in July 2007.

During this period, Ana said Li seemed reasonably happy, working at Wal-Mart and delivering daily newspapers in the morning.

In the summer of 2008, his state of mind rapidly deteriorated. Li purchased a plane ticket and returned to China to see his family but stayed only one day. Li's father said his son claimed to be visiting to "find a wife."

Back in Edmonton, Li continued his descent into mental anguish. In late July 2008, returning home from a night shift, Ana found a note from Li: "Don't look for me. I wish you were happy." Ana was not initially worried. "When he felt stressed, he went somewhere for a few days and then came back."

On July 30, Ana was contacted by the RCMP just before her night shift started and told that Li had been arrested.

The first time Dr. Stanley Yaren met Vince Li in August 2008, no words were spoken. Li was heavily medicated, and still adjusting to his new surroundings at the psychiatric unit. Notes from that first meeting indicate that Yaren, attempting to open the lines of communication, gave Li a pad of paper and a pencil. Li eventually wrote a note to the psychiatrist:

"God will kill me."

Notes from Yaren's sessions with Li show a man still firmly in the grasp of his mental illness. Li described how God had talked to him and indeed, how God talked to him even with Yaren in the room. Several times, Li became quite animated at the thought that perhaps Yaren could hear the same voices.

There were revelations. That Li very nearly attacked a man the day before he killed Tim McLean. The man had been driving around the bus station in Erickson, Man., and God told Li the man had come to kill him. He pulled out his knife in case the man tried to enter the bus station. The truck drove off.

Li also revealed his greatest concern is that he disobeyed direct orders from God. It was God who told him to leave Edmonton and stop in Erickson to live "forever." But the same voice also warned him the man in the truck was going to kill him. Against God's advice, he left Erickson.

It was on this leg of the Greyhound bus trip that the voices in Vince Li's head began to tear him apart. God was angry that he had not remained in Erickson, and now God was warning him that another man, Tim McLean, was going to kill him.

"It's not my kill," Li recalled. "God kill him. God choose me to kill him. God angry at me because God asked me to stay in Erickson forever. God choose my hand to kill, I truly believe that."

Later, Li claimed there were good gods and evil gods and it was the latter who commanded him to kill McLean, who was also a threat. It was kill or be killed, according to the God talking to Li, although he now acknowledged there were good and evil Gods in his head.

"I don't think about God every day," Li told Rootenberg in one of their final sessions. "But sometimes I ask God why he picked me to do these things.

"I'm an average person. I still trust God. God is 90-99 per cent good."
While a lot of that is heavy on his relation ship with "God" (or gods) and his varying opinions about God, I think the most important part is this:
The circumstances surrounding Li's release from the Toronto hospital are unclear. Li claimed he "escaped" and there is no discharge note on his chart. It is now believed he refused treatment and left against the advice of his doctor. He was prescribed medication for his condition, but he was never formally diagnosed with a mental disorder.
Someone who refuses care or medication like this, how can he ever be trusted to care for himself again? Clearly, he needs to stay in the mental health system. His family was unable to help him. He gradually became more erratic starting in 2004 and apparently had thoughts of killing another man shortly before he encountered his unfortunate fellow passenger, Tim McLean, 4 years later.
Image
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Big Phil »

On the other hand, he was sane enough to purchase a bus ticket.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
DPDarkPrimus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 18399
Joined: 2002-11-22 11:02pm
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:On the other hand, he was sane enough to purchase a bus ticket.
Just because someone can pass themselves off in social situations does not mean they do not have psychoses.
Mayabird is my girlfriend
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
User avatar
SilverWingedSeraph
Jedi Knight
Posts: 965
Joined: 2007-02-15 11:56am
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Contact:

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

Darth Wong wrote:You have not established that "altered" automatically means "did not even realize it was illegal to chop someone's head off".
You're right, I haven't established that, because I'm not a psychiatrist and I've never met the guy. There's no possible way for me to establish that. But presumably the psychiatrists for this trial established it clearly enough, as the prosecution and the defense and the judge agreed on it.
  /l、
゙(゚、 。 7
 l、゙ ~ヽ
 じしf_, )ノ
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

SilverWingedSeraph wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You have not established that "altered" automatically means "did not even realize it was illegal to chop someone's head off".
You're right, I haven't established that, because I'm not a psychiatrist and I've never met the guy. There's no possible way for me to establish that. But presumably the psychiatrists for this trial established it clearly enough, as the prosecution and the defense and the judge agreed on it.
Wrong. The psychiatrist established that he suffers from a mental illness. The law establishes that a mental illness negates the mental state required for certain crimes such as murder, and furthermore it also prescribes the punishment or in this case treatment. The judge is bound by the law, and thus had no choice but to render the ruling he did.

None of these established that his condition made him incapable of realizing that it is illegal murder and then chop someones head off.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3317
Joined: 2004-10-15 08:57pm
Location: Regina Nihilists' Guild Party Headquarters

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Vincent Li, to his own mind, had it on firm authority, the voice of God, that this man was going to kill him, which meant that it was self-defence and thus he was not committing murder to his eyes. As it was God, the arbiter of truth, telling him this, there is was no doubt that he was about to be killed by this demon unless he acted to destroy it. Further, as he did not pre-meditate this act, and to his own mind did not intend to do it, as, acting only as an instrument for God, serving only God's will without hesitation, without clearly making any decision himself whether or not to attack this demon, he clearly did not have intent. Besides which, he wasn't killing a person, merely a demon, and killing a demon is not illegal. These three things together mean that he obviously did not have the mens rea required to actually commit any crime under Canadian law.
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Sorry but as a Bi-polar, boarderline crazy under medication its over a century old:

McNaughton

please read this RT
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Napoleon the Clown
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2446
Joined: 2007-05-05 02:54pm
Location: Minneso'a

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Seriously, Bear, don't expect comprehension from people who don't have personal experience with having or dealing with mental illness. It's very rare. There's a reason I generally don't discuss my thoughts with others when I'm having a nasty manic episode or depressive episode. As this thread has demonstrated in such a lovely manner.


I find it interesting how there's been no comment in regards to my analogy. It's basically the same exact situation. In both cases, the killer is convinced that they are in mortal danger. In both cases, the killer is likely fully aware that killing an innocent person is illegal and wrong. And both are coming to a rational conclusion based off the information they have, even if one is receiving false information because they've got a brain that's fucked up on the most fundamental level.
Sig images are for people who aren't fucking lazy.
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

yeah, but to far too many idiots the people who are legally insane are "Getting off Easy", no one understands what it's like to feel your mind slipping, to hear the nudging gremlins making suggestions, the fear of loosing control, and incarceration in a mental facilitiy where you have no control, and eventually when the drugs kick in, you have no control, but are left with your humanity and your conciouse torturing you, and you still have no control.

Want to think that's bad, talk to a person who was a technitian during the manhatten project, who felt responsible for all the deaths that the two bombs dropped on Japanese cities caused, felt that all those shadows were ghosts of those Japanese. This person used to beat nurses, volunteers, and other patients.
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Darth Wong »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Vincent Li, to his own mind, had it on firm authority, the voice of God, that this man was going to kill him, which meant that it was self-defence and thus he was not committing murder to his eyes.
And George W. Bush had it on firm authority from God that it was a good idea to invade Iraq. It still doesn't mean he didn't understand he was doing something illegal.
As it was God, the arbiter of truth, telling him this, there is was no doubt that he was about to be killed by this demon unless he acted to destroy it.
If he was an atheist, he might have simply thought it was a voice in his head. He still made a choice.
Further, as he did not pre-meditate this act, and to his own mind did not intend to do it, as, acting only as an instrument for God, serving only God's will without hesitation, without clearly making any decision himself whether or not to attack this demon, he clearly did not have intent.
Now this is grade A horseshit. The fact that you think God has ordered you to do something does not mean you did not intend to do it.
Besides which, he wasn't killing a person, merely a demon, and killing a demon is not illegal. These three things together mean that he obviously did not have the mens rea required to actually commit any crime under Canadian law.
Since when is killing a "demon" perfectly legal under Canadian law? If we define a "demon" as a person who we believe to be evil but who obviously has the mental faculties of any other human, then he would have rights. You can't seriously tell me that you think the law gives carte blanche to people to murder anyone who they believe to be possessed by demons. I suppose we should also allow forcible exorcisms?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3317
Joined: 2004-10-15 08:57pm
Location: Regina Nihilists' Guild Party Headquarters

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Darth Wong wrote: Since when is killing a "demon" perfectly legal under Canadian law? If we define a "demon" as a person who we believe to be evil but who obviously has the mental faculties of any other human, then he would have rights. You can't seriously tell me that you think the law gives carte blanche to people to murder anyone who they believe to be possessed by demons. I suppose we should also allow forcible exorcisms?
... What? I'm absolutely not saying that, like, at all. I'm trying to explain how a schizophrenic person, even if they were aware of their real surroundings, which isn't true, why they wouldn't see what they were doing as wrong by any standard or measure.

Quite frankly I'm just kind of baffled at the idea that schizophrenic and psychotic people know exactly what they're doing and that what they're doing is forbade. These people effectively have no conscious control over their actions, and their instinctual responses are skewed so strongly by their false perceptions of the world that their reactions are irreconcileable to the fact of their surroundings. They just aren't in control of their own actions.

I mean, seriously, not to be a 'I'm more experienced than you so fuck off' guy, but do you know any schizophrenic or psychotic people? Do you understand how brain-chemistry works? You might as well punish people who hurt others while sleepwalking. The only reason we let intoxicated people off the hook is because by taking drugs voluntarily they implicitly accept the risk of losing conscious control. People who involuntarily take mind-altering drugs ARE let off the hook, because they're no longer in a state that allows them to act with proper control over their own actions.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Darth Wong »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Since when is killing a "demon" perfectly legal under Canadian law? If we define a "demon" as a person who we believe to be evil but who obviously has the mental faculties of any other human, then he would have rights. You can't seriously tell me that you think the law gives carte blanche to people to murder anyone who they believe to be possessed by demons. I suppose we should also allow forcible exorcisms?
... What? I'm absolutely not saying that, like, at all. I'm trying to explain how a schizophrenic person, even if they were aware of their real surroundings, which isn't true, why they wouldn't see what they were doing as wrong by any standard or measure.
Same objection. Even if a schizophrenic person honestly believes a person has been possessed by a demon, that doesn't mean he should believe it would be legal to kill that person under Canadian law. What fucking part of this escapes your mental grasp?
Quite frankly I'm just kind of baffled at the idea that schizophrenic and psychotic people know exactly what they're doing and that what they're doing is forbade.
Of course, since you assume that once someone is schizophrenic, they have zero comprehension of anything. Nice black/white fallacy.
These people effectively have no conscious control over their actions, and their instinctual responses are skewed so strongly by their false perceptions of the world that their reactions are irreconcileable to the fact of their surroundings. They just aren't in control of their own actions.
See above.
I mean, seriously, not to be a 'I'm more experienced than you so fuck off' guy, but do you know any schizophrenic or psychotic people? Do you understand how brain-chemistry works? You might as well punish people who hurt others while sleepwalking. The only reason we let intoxicated people off the hook is because by taking drugs voluntarily they implicitly accept the risk of losing conscious control. People who involuntarily take mind-altering drugs ARE let off the hook, because they're no longer in a state that allows them to act with proper control over their own actions.
See above. I'm not ruling out mental illness as an excuse, but you are treating it as a black/white fallacy.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Vendetta »

Darth Wong wrote:Same objection. Even if a schizophrenic person honestly believes a person has been possessed by a demon, that doesn't mean he should believe it would be legal to kill that person under Canadian law. What fucking part of this escapes your mental grasp?
The onset of a schizophrenic event frequently interrupts the normal flow of cognition. So yes, when an attack happens, they very literally do have zero comprehension of anything, because their brain has simply ceased to function in the normal fashion. No matter what their mental state under normal circumstances, it is possible for a schizophrenic person to completely and utterly lose conscious control.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Follow-Up To Bus Rider Beheading Story

Post by Darth Wong »

Vendetta wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Same objection. Even if a schizophrenic person honestly believes a person has been possessed by a demon, that doesn't mean he should believe it would be legal to kill that person under Canadian law. What fucking part of this escapes your mental grasp?
The onset of a schizophrenic event frequently interrupts the normal flow of cognition. So yes, when an attack happens, they very literally do have zero comprehension of anything, because their brain has simply ceased to function in the normal fashion. No matter what their mental state under normal circumstances, it is possible for a schizophrenic person to completely and utterly lose conscious control.
Ah, so the black/white fallacy must in fact be true because ... you say so. Gotcha.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Post Reply