Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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MKSheppard
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Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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Peter Beaumont
The Guardian
Friday 13 March 2009

The United States has stepped closer to a total ban on the use and export of cluster bombs with the signing by Barack Obama of a new permanent law that would make it almost impossible for the US to sell the controversial weapons.

The decision was hailed by opponents of the weapons as a "major turnaround in US policy" that overrode Pentagon calls to permit their continued export.

The new legislation, tacked on to a huge budget bill, was passed earlier this week by Congress and now sets such stringent rules for the bombs' use, including a ban on sales where they might be suspected of being used where civilians are present, that it seems unlikely the US could export them again.

Researchers believe the US has transferred hundreds of thousands of cluster munitions, containing tens of millions of unreliable and inaccurate bomblets, to 28 countries. They are regarded by those who campaign against their use as indiscriminate and dangerous to clear up.

Under the new rules, the air and artillery-deployed weapons, which scatter hundreds of bomblets, are required to have a self-destruct failure rate of less than 1%, which few of the US cluster bombs meet, before being cleared for sale.

Despite a temporary ban having been in place, the Pentagon made it clear last year that it was keen to see the export of the weapons again.

The new law comes into force amid growing pressure from Congress for a complete ban on their use, even by the US military. International opposition to cluster bombs, which maim and kill civilians long after they have been fired during conflicts, has been hardening rapidly since the Israeli Defence Forces fired more than 1m into southern Lebanon during the 2006 war with Hezbollah. Last year, a treaty limiting their use was signed by 95 countries, including most of America's Nato allies - but not the US.

The 2008 treaty has in effect dried up the potential market for US-manufactured munitions, but in a policy document put out by the Pentagon last year, the US defence department called for it to be allowed to export cluster bombs for another 10 years.

"This permanent export ban is a major turnaround in US policy," said Steve Goose, arms division director at Human Rights Watch, which has campaigned against cluster munitions. "It brings Washington into closer alignment with international opinion on this terrible weapon.

"The passage of this measure is yet another indication that the president should initiate a thorough review of US policy with respect to cluster munitions. If it is unacceptable for foreign militaries to use these weapons, why would it be acceptable for the US military to use them?"

In July 2008, Robert Gates, the defence secretary, issued a three-page directive spelling out US policy on cluster munitions which described the ordnance as "legitimate weapons with clear military utility". Under that policy, the US will continue to use cluster munitions and, after 2018, will use only munitions with a tested failure rate of less than 1%.

However, in December 2008, a spokeswoman for the Obama transition team said the next president would "carefully review" the treaty banning cluster munitions and "work closely [with] our friends and allies to ensure that the United States is doing everything feasible to promote protection of civilians".

Goose said: "The export ban moves the US one step closer to the position taken by nearly 100 nations, including its closest Nato allies, that have signed the treaty banning cluster munitions. A US decision to sign would certainly signal President Obama's commitment to multilateral diplomacy."

The move was also welcomed by the US Campaign to Ban Landmines. "What is important is the growing awareness that these weapons are beyond the pale," said Lora Lumpe. "This is a significant step towards seeing these weapons banned entirely. The door is closing on cluster munitions. When Georgia and Russia both used them in the war in South Ossetia last year they denied their use, because they realise how unacceptable the use of cluster bombs is now becoming."
We should just start deploying napalm enmasse; ironically, cluster bombs were a way to get the area effect of napalm without the icky issues of burning people alive; now we can't cut them to pieces with fragmentation; so I guess we'll go back to napalm. :angelic:
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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But think of the children!
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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Under the new rules, the air and artillery-deployed weapons, which scatter hundreds of bomblets, are required to have a self-destruct failure rate of less than 1%, which few of the US cluster bombs meet, before being cleared for sale.
If this standard extremely difficult to meet? If so, why?

How heavily do we expect to employ cluster bombs and/or napalm in a future engagement?
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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Napalm would present less of a long-term hazard than cluster munitions do.
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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Darth Wong wrote:Napalm would present less of a long-term hazard than cluster munitions do.
But it would also be military far less effective and cover a much smaller area, meaning you have to drop about ten times as much napalm as cluster bombs for the same results, and even then against targets like light armored vehicles even that ratio might not be sufficient. For the US this is less of an issue since we can afford so many air sorties and so many air and ground fired guided weapons, but for our allies, well, they’ll just keep using cluster bombs. Many US allies already produce older US cluster bomb designs, ones which have dud rates as high as 10, even 20 percent. If we wont sell them newer ones, then they’ll just keep producing and using the old ones, or buy from China. Somehow I don’t think the dud rate on a Chinese cluster bomb is going to be low.
Anguirus wrote: If this standard extremely difficult to meet? If so, why?
It has so far been impossible to meet. The US has been working to reduce due rates since the Gulf War, and not one design has acutely achieved less then 1%. I think the best they got was 1.4% and that was only in tests of individual bomb lets, not complete cluster bomb dispensers dumping out 300 of the things at once. Still dud rates are now much lower, more like 2-3% on average rather then 10%.

In fact the reality is few if any explosive weapons are so reliable that they could reach such a low dud rate, never mind doing so in a device which weighs maybe two pounds total. Remember a fuse doesn’t just have to make the bomb explode, it also has to ensure it will not explode before you want it too, such as if an airman loading the bomblet into a dispenser drops it on the floor. So it has to have a safe/arm device which knows when the conditions to arm itself have been met. Then even if it does arm, it has to strike the ground with enough force to detonate itself (that’s a big hangup with cluster bombs, they just don’t hit that hard) and even if the fuse devices to fire, the chemicals in the trigger and booster charges still have to work, and then the main charge has to work. All of this has to happen after the fuse and bomblet is made by the lowest bidder, held in a bunker for ten or twenty years, then moved halfway around the world and dropped on or fired at the enemy.

The introduction of electronic fuses allowed for the incorporation of a time delay based self destruct circuit, but while that helps destroy bomblets which just didn’t hit the ground hard enough to trigger the fuse, it doesn’t do much to help when the fuse is just defective.

Back in Vietnam we had dud rates as high as 20% for even large unitary aircraft bombs, and sometimes entire batches of artillery fuses had to be rejected because none of them worked. Its just not easy to make a safe and reliable fuse. If you sacrificed all safety for the user then things would be simpler.

How heavily do we expect to employ cluster bombs and/or napalm in a future engagement?
The US has found replacements for most uses of cluster bombs, but we still need them for MLRS rockets and to a lesser extent 155mm artillery, and many targets for air attack are just too big and dispersed to be effectively hit with unitary guided weapons unless you drop a very huge number of them. Many Tomahawk cruise missiles for example are armed with bomblets.

One of the problems is guided weapons only work if you have a specific point to aim them at. If the target is say 500 yards of treeline an entire enemy infantry company is occupying, guided weapons don’t help you out too much, you need an area weapon. Abet some weapons like the mentioned Tomahawk combined highly accurate guidance and bomblet warheads because that’s just how some targets are best hit with like an aircraft flightline.

However what works for the US and its 500 billion dollar defence budget doesn’t always work for say Egypt (which current license produces US M85 bomblets with a dud rate over 10%) or Morocco with much more limited means of delivery and spending.
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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MKSheppard wrote:We should just start deploying napalm enmasse; ironically, cluster bombs were a way to get the area effect of napalm without the icky issues of burning people alive; now we can't cut them to pieces with fragmentation; so I guess we'll go back to napalm. :angelic:
We didn't stop using it to begin with. We just came up with a different chemical variation with a different name, so we could fry people and piously proclaim we weren't using napalm.
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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Lord of the Abyss wrote: We didn't stop using it to begin with. We just came up with a different chemical variation with a different name, so we could fry people and piously proclaim we weren't using napalm.
Would you mind clarifying for those of us who don't follow the latest on napalm?
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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Cpl Kendall wrote:
Lord of the Abyss wrote: We didn't stop using it to begin with. We just came up with a different chemical variation with a different name, so we could fry people and piously proclaim we weren't using napalm.
Would you mind clarifying for those of us who don't follow the latest on napalm?
There are quotes from American Generals talking about the effects of a napalm-like substance that was dropped on some Iraqi units on a bridge during the 2003 invasion. Apparently they (or he) talked about how the effect is very very similar to napalm, and that it's really just napalm with a different sticker on the container. Or something like that. Also some disgust about the effects on human beings. Or excitement, I can't even remember right now.
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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I assume he's talking about White Phosphorus.
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

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Commander 598 wrote:I assume he's talking about White Phosphorus.
Except napalm and WP aren't related at all (except for burning shit), which is what Lord of the Abyss is claiming.

Going by what Phantasee mentions, I think LotA is talking about the kerosene variant of napalm
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Re: Barry steps us closer to another weapons ban...

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Phantasee wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:
Lord of the Abyss wrote: We didn't stop using it to begin with. We just came up with a different chemical variation with a different name, so we could fry people and piously proclaim we weren't using napalm.
Would you mind clarifying for those of us who don't follow the latest on napalm?
There are quotes from American Generals talking about the effects of a napalm-like substance that was dropped on some Iraqi units on a bridge during the 2003 invasion. Apparently they (or he) talked about how the effect is very very similar to napalm, and that it's really just napalm with a different sticker on the container. Or something like that. Also some disgust about the effects on human beings. Or excitement, I can't even remember right now.
Yes. At first they denied it was napalm; then they admitted that it's something that does the same thing but has a different name. Here's an old story about it that I just googled up. I see Cpl Kendall is right about it being a kerosene based version.
What the Marines dropped, the spokesmen said yesterday, were "Mark 77 firebombs." They acknowledged those are incendiary devices with a function "remarkably similar" to napalm weapons.

Rather than using gasoline and benzene as the fuel, the firebombs use kerosene-based jet fuel, which has a smaller concentration of benzene.
And no it wasn't about using WP; the use of WP was a different controversy.
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