Iraq War turns six

[Force Lord]

I mean, the regiment of course. Sorry for the triple post.

[Force Lord]

I really loved it though, when after decades of protests, we finally shut down the bombing range on Vieques, and then naturally also shut down the base that supported it. But that base pumped millions into the local economy, so naturally.. people protested it being closed.

Don't forget the high cancer rates!

[Lonestar]

To be fair, how many of those were ethnically Puerto Ricans and from New York or LA, versus how many from he home islands? I've known a lot of 'puerto rican's' too and with huge egos and massive self esteem, but not many from Puerto Rico itself.

Force Lords silly temper tantrum aside.

Most of them. The one that sticks in my mind(he was in my Division) was from some hamlet on the Island. In fact, as I sit here and ponder it, the only Puerto Rican I know from off the Island was a coworker when I was at HQDA. And he had issues independent of any inferiority or superiority complex.

[Force Lord]

Hmmm, guess I need to know more about my own people. For a reason we're one of the happiest places in the world (supposedly), even though we were suffering a recession years before the economic crisis hit the world.

[Lonestar]

Hmmm, guess I need to know more about my own people. For a reason we're one of the happiest places in the world (supposedly), even though we were suffering a recession years before the economic crisis hit the world.

To be fair, most people in the Military have superiority complexes, not just Puerto Ricans.

[Force Lord]

I don't have anything else to say about Iraq. I'm a bit ashamed of the fact that I hijacked the thread.

[Knife]

Most of them. The one that sticks in my mind(he was in my Division) was from some hamlet on the Island. In fact, as I sit here and ponder it, the only Puerto Rican I know from off the Island was a coworker when I was at HQDA. And he had issues independent of any inferiority or superiority complex.

Hmm, odd. Not questioning you, rather just anecdotal. Most I knew in the Corps. were from NY or LA rather than some obscure island. I only know a few from the actual place and they are old. I always figured that the poofed out bullshit was one of cultural identification rather than an actual cultural bit.

[Knife]

I don't have anything else to say about Iraq. I'm a bit ashamed of the fact that I hijacked the thread.

See, this is what happens when you run your mouth...er...fingers.

[Kartr_Kana]

As someone who's actually been to Iraq and had the chance to talk to and work with Iraqi Nationals we did the right thing by invading.
Yes mistakes were made and it wasn't perfect, but war is never perfect.

Iraqi's are like anyone else you've got "bad guys" "good guys" and "we don't give a shit either way guys". The people who hate the US over there are vastly out numbered by those who are glad we came. On multiple occasions we would stop at a house on patrol to search it and by the end the young marines would be playing soccer with the kids while the NCO's SNCO's and Officer(s) would be talking with the head of the house. The women would fix everyone dinner and then when we left we'd give them gifts to show our thanks for their hospitality. All of them agreed that the infrastructure was much better under Sadaam but they felt safer now that he was dead. Part of that was because the terrorists were running check points in the region before we came.

Men weren't allowed to smoke or drink, women had to be completely covered and couldn't go to the market for food unless their husband was with them. Three weeks after we got there, markets were opened up again, traffic had increased ten-fold and everywhere you went, smiling faces and waving hands. People would often stop us to tell us who was a sniper or who helped the terrorists. Far from hating us we were welcomed with open arms by 90% of the population and this in northern Al-Anbar which was considered the last strong hold of the "insurgents" before my unit started conducting operations there.

So were we given false reasons for going? Maybe. Was Bush an incompetent fool? Maybe. Was invading Iraq the right thing to do? Yes.

[Knife]

So were we given false reasons for going? Maybe. Was Bush an incompetent fool? Maybe. Was invading Iraq the right thing to do? Yes.

Er...ok. That's fine, but that was a decision made six years ago. Everything after that was shit. That's not the way to run policy.

[ray245]

So were we given false reasons for going? Maybe. Was Bush an incompetent fool? Maybe. Was invading Iraq the right thing to do? Yes.

Isn't it better if the US army focus its attention on Afghanistan as opposed to Iraq? Even if the Iraq war was a complete success, less resources will be available for Iraq.

[Samuel]

As someone who's actually been to Iraq and had the chance to talk to and work with Iraqi Nationals we did the right thing by invading.
Yes mistakes were made and it wasn't perfect, but war is never perfect.

Iraqi's are like anyone else you've got "bad guys" "good guys" and "we don't give a shit either way guys". The people who hate the US over there are vastly out numbered by those who are glad we came. On multiple occasions we would stop at a house on patrol to search it and by the end the young marines would be playing soccer with the kids while the NCO's SNCO's and Officer(s) would be talking with the head of the house. The women would fix everyone dinner and then when we left we'd give them gifts to show our thanks for their hospitality. All of them agreed that the infrastructure was much better under Sadaam but they felt safer now that he was dead. Part of that was because the terrorists were running check points in the region before we came.

Men weren't allowed to smoke or drink, women had to be completely covered and couldn't go to the market for food unless their husband was with them. Three weeks after we got there, markets were opened up again, traffic had increased ten-fold and everywhere you went, smiling faces and waving hands. People would often stop us to tell us who was a sniper or who helped the terrorists. Far from hating us we were welcomed with open arms by 90% of the population and this in northern Al-Anbar which was considered the last strong hold of the "insurgents" before my unit started conducting operations there.

So were we given false reasons for going? Maybe. Was Bush an incompetent fool? Maybe. Was invading Iraq the right thing to do? Yes.

Unfortunately, as people have never tired of pointing out, that applies to many, many, many countries on Earth. Much of Africa, the stans, North Korea and several Middle Eastern countries (including almost all our allies) fit in that category.

Of course, they happen to be better choices than Iraq because they don't have a powerful nation that is trying to gain nukes and is slightly nuts on their border.

[Kartr_Kana]

Er...ok. That's fine, but that was a decision made six years ago. Everything after that was shit. That's not the way to run policy.

Maybe policy was, I didn't follow everything to closely. One policy/decision I am familiar with was the Surge and that worked. I'm not trying to say Bush was a great President or a smart guy, just that all the work that everyone in the Armed Forces has done and are doing hasn't been for nothing and that good has come of it.

Isn't it better if the US army focus its attention on Afghanistan as opposed to Iraq? Even if the Iraq war was a complete success, less resources will be available for Iraq.

The US Military is shifting it's focus to Afghanistan and most of the forces in Iraq are "MITT Teams" who are training the Iraqi Police and Army. The USMC alone just sent an Expeditionary Brigade to Afghanistan comprised of four battalions IIRC. That's in addition the the units we already have there.

Unfortunately, as people have never tired of pointing out, that applies to many, many, many countries on Earth. Much of Africa, the stans, North Korea and several Middle Eastern countries (including almost all our allies) fit in that category.

Of course, they happen to be better choices than Iraq because they don't have a powerful nation that is trying to gain nukes and is slightly nuts on their border.

Yes that applies to most third world countries and the only real reason I think Iraq was necessary is that by us being there it will hopefully put a check on Iran. Also while we've yet to find WMD's in Iraq there are always the rumors that they were smuggled across the border, but more to the point my squad found 45 artillery shells that EOD initially believed contained Mustard Gas left over from the Iraq/Iran war. Turned out that they weren't, but the fact that it was possible just goes to show that other caches of such materials could be hidden out in the desert and we just haven't found them. If you've done cache sweeps you know how easy it'd be to hide something like that.

[Knife]

Maybe policy was, I didn't follow everything to closely.

I supported the war when it started, I even recognized at the time Bush was using selling points (though I did think Saddam had WMD's and was wrong) to sell it to the public. Fine, support or don't' at that point. Every thing after was a complete cluster fuck. So you can say, "I agreed with going in." and STILL be against this cluster fuck even if you have made some good friends and contacts amongst the locals. At the end of the day if all we have is some low level friends the troops made, it is BAD foreign policy.

One policy/decision I am familiar with was the Surge and that worked.

Four years too late. That is kind of indicative of what I'm saying. You can make 'right' decisions but at wrong times or right decisions and then nothing after it and expect momentum or luck to carry you through. That is not good foreign policy.

I'm not trying to say Bush was a great President or a smart guy, just that all the work that everyone in the Armed Forces has done and are doing hasn't been for nothing and that good has come of it.

I'm sorry and I know where you are coming from, but again the guys on the ground could be doing some great work at very small levels and it still is a fucking mess because as a nation our strategic goals are not being met. Soldiers need to feel like what they do make a difference, and I'm right there with you on that but you can win a battle and lose a war and that's what this clusterfuck was.

[Kartr_Kana]

Fair enough Knife I get what you're saying and yeah put that way it was bad policy and a clusterfuck. Just wanted to point out that not everyone there hates us and that on a one to one basis the average Soldier/Marine helped people.

[Big Phil]

There's a Puerto Rican guy (from the island) who works about eight feet away from me; I haven't detected any inferiority complex in the 12 months we've worked together... perhaps some mild alcoholism and a bit of a smart mouth, but no inferiority complex.

[Coyote]

One policy/decision I am familiar with was the Surge and that worked. I'm not trying to say Bush was a great President or a smart guy, just that all the work that everyone in the Armed Forces has done and are doing hasn't been for nothing and that good has come of it.

My biggest beef with the way the war was handled was that the "surge" was, in reality, an admission that we failed to go in there with enough troops in the first place. If we'd had adequate forces from the start, and were able to clamp down authoritatively, then the "surge" may not have been needed at all. It was a four-year learning curve that was unecessary, and cost a lot of blood.

Most of us knew we didn't have enough troops in there at the start, and that they did nothing while the country unravelled. Once the decision was made to invade --for better or worse, according to one's political viewpoints-- it should have at least been done properly.

So I'm with you in a way; I saw a lot of progress when I was there, too, but it was progress that was delayed for a long time while the leaders dithered. This point we're at now, with the drawdowns and exit plan? We could have been at this point 3 years ago and saved a lot of heartache...

[Ekiqa]

And the only Iraqi ministry that the US Army protected was the oil, and left the rest, including all the museums, be ransacked. That was a very galling to see. Only the parts of the country which would produce profits for Bush and Cheney's friends were saved.

[The Grim Squeaker]

And the only Iraqi ministry that the US Army protected was the oil, and left the rest, including all the museums, be ransacked. That was a very galling to see. Only the parts of the country which would produce profits for Bush and Cheney's friends were saved.

As well as serving for the base of the country's entire economy, as well as it's chief and most profitable (both volume and value) commodity. Also the basis for reconstructing the country's economy.

[Knife]

And the only Iraqi ministry that the US Army protected was the oil, and left the rest, including all the museums, be ransacked. That was a very galling to see. Only the parts of the country which would produce profits for Bush and Cheney's friends were saved.

That was six years ago. A bad decision, but not indicative of the over all scheme. Move along.

[Adjudicator]

Back in 2003, I was every skeptical about the US invading Iraq at that time. I remembered the confidence that the insurgency in Afghanistan will fade quickly, and it seems that the quick victory caused overconfidence.

The "War on Terror" being expanded to Iraq seems to run parallel to Hitler invading Russia while still facing a difficult battle against the United Kingdom in World War 2.

Even if the US succeeds, there is still the cost of prosecuting an offensive war, which is always high.