US Cigarette Tax Increases

[Darth Wong]

Sute, you seem to think Broomstick is engaging in a strawman fallacy by thinking that anyone wants to go back to the old days, but that's precisely what the self-styled libertarians want. What do they think would happen if government treated smoking as if it's "nobody's business", as some have advocated here? The entire reason we have all these modern restrictions against smoking is because people got fed up and said "You know what? It is my business whether you smoke."

[Broomstick]

And for the record, those smokers I mentioned having to spend a few weeks with, did follow your little set of how-not-to-be-an-asshat rules. There, now I have an (admittedly smaller) piece of anecdotal evidence as well.

You, like a lot of other snot-nosed jackasses on the internet do not understand the difference between "anecdote" and "observation" and dismiss all observation and personal experience as "mere" anecdote. How do you think science is done? By observation as well as experimentation.

Once or twice is an anecdote. Multiple times over decades is observation. Most smokers are inconsiderate assholes whether they think they are or not. The fact that you argue in favor of asshattery makes me lump you in with them whether you smoke or not. I have little patience for nicotine apologists, and you have exhausted it.

[Darth Wong]

Let's put it this way: if huge numbers of smokers were not inconsiderate, then they would welcome these laws. The fact that so many of them consider these laws an unfair imposition upon their "rights" is proof that they are not as courteous as they claim to be.

Discourteous smoking is like discourteous driving. You almost never see anyone claiming it, yet you routinely see people doing it.

[Stark]

The best part is that smoking-reduction laws in AU have had none of the scaremongering negative effects, but have made restaurants smoke-free entirely... something 'considerate' smoking or 'just leave the smoke area LOLOLOLOLOL' attitudes would never, EVER have achieved.

Make spaces more healthy for people to be in is somehow... bad?

[Darth Wong]

Some "smokers' rights" groups:

http://www.forestonline.org/ (FOREST: Freedom Organization for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco)

http://www.mychoice.ca/about.html (My Choice: a "grass-roots" movement that was originally started and funded by Imperial Tobacco, Rothmans, Benson and Hedges Inc. and JTI-Macdonald Corp according to CTV).

http://www.smokersclubinc.com/ (The United Pro-Choice Smokers' Rights Newsletter)

MyChoice claims to be one of the largest independent consumer advocacy groups in the country, based on the number of sign-ups.

[Darth Wong]

Another example of inconsiderate smokers: every time I rant about the assholes who toss their cigarette butts on roadsides, lawns, etc., I always hear 100% of the respondents saying "I never do that!"

I have actually never heard anyone anywhere admit to doing that. And yet, when you look at the road sides and the grass, what do you see? Goddamned cigarette butts everywhere. I guess they must appear by magic, since no one ever drops them there.

[Qwerty 42]

Generally, the opponents of smoking take objection to the harmful nature of secondhand smoke, which is a real and legitimate concern. The comparison to obesity is thoroughly irrelevant in this regard because obesity is not harmful to other people.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my point. Especially since Chocula was only talking about health care costs (which actually does affect both smokers and the hideously obese, not that it makes the hilarious indignation of smokers being picked on too much relevant in the slightest).

It doesn't, really. I'm actually not sure why I thought to quote you when I made my post, I apologize.

[Terralthra]

There are certain things the government could do, like regulating restaurants more strictly. Restaurants currently are not required to provide calorie estimates for their menu offerings, for example. A lot of people don't realize that restaurants get you to eat their food by cooking with shitloads of butter, among other things. And even if junk-food taxes don't necessarily end obesity, they can help pay for the health-care costs resulting from it. They could also help balance the scales between unhealthy but cheap low-quality food and healthier food.

I don't know about laws in Canada, but in California, there is a law requiring many restaurants (any with 20+ locations) to post or make available on request calorie and nutrition information. Many other jurisdictions (states, counties) have similar laws, and it looks as if Congress is considering a similar law this session.

[Darth Wong]

There are certain things the government could do, like regulating restaurants more strictly. Restaurants currently are not required to provide calorie estimates for their menu offerings, for example. A lot of people don't realize that restaurants get you to eat their food by cooking with shitloads of butter, among other things. And even if junk-food taxes don't necessarily end obesity, they can help pay for the health-care costs resulting from it. They could also help balance the scales between unhealthy but cheap low-quality food and healthier food.

I don't know about laws in Canada, but in California, there is a law requiring many restaurants (any with 20+ locations) to post or make available on request calorie and nutrition information. Many other jurisdictions (states, counties) have similar laws, and it looks as if Congress is considering a similar law this session.

Worthless. Very few people will actually request this information, and fewer still will report restaurants for being unable to provide it in a timely fashion. Restaurants should be required to report at least a few basic pieces of information up-front on the menu.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Let's put it this way: if huge numbers of smokers were not inconsiderate, then they would welcome these laws. The fact that so many of them consider these laws an unfair imposition upon their "rights" is proof that they are not as courteous as they claim to be.

I do smoke cigarettes, but I agree with you. I do welcome these laws, as well as laws restricting smoking in restaurants and other public places. Some jurisdictions have laws where you can' even smoke within so-many feet of a building entrance (if it is a school or restaurant, IIRC). I applaud these laws too. I enjoy cigarettes, but the idea of smoker's rights and smoker advocacy groups is mind-boggingly retarded. I know it is hypocritical of me to support these laws and still smoke. But, when it comes right down to it, these laws are the right thing to do.

And as for the cigarettes on the sidewalk thing, I tend not to leave butts on the ground because I usually don't smoke outside. I smoke on my balcony, and I put my butts in a tin can because my landlord fines me $5 if he finds butts anywhere on the property. But, I won't lie, there have been times where I've been that inconsiderate smoker who just threw it down on the sidewalk.

[Lusankya]

Worthless. Very few people will actually request this information, and fewer still will report restaurants for being unable to provide it in a timely fashion. Restaurants should be required to report at least a few basic pieces of information up-front on the menu.

In Australia, McDonalds has to put their nutrition information on the packaging. I think they also have a sign up somewhere with the information on it (though that might have gone now they have the packaging information.

Not that anybody actually looks at it, of course.

[lance]

Let's say that this leads to less smoking, which leads to less health problems of smokers, won't that lead to better service at hospitals? One less person in line for asthma or what have you.

[FSTargetDrone]

Let's say that this leads to less smoking, which leads to less health problems of smokers, won't that lead to better service at hospitals? One less person in line for asthma or what have you.

Less cardiovascular disease, too.

[Questor]

Worthless. Very few people will actually request this information, and fewer still will report restaurants for being unable to provide it in a timely fashion. Restaurants should be required to report at least a few basic pieces of information up-front on the menu.

In Australia, McDonalds has to put their nutrition information on the packaging. I think they also have a sign up somewhere with the information on it (though that might have gone now they have the packaging information.

Not that anybody actually looks at it, of course.

I think its on the packaging here in CA, too. At least there's one of those boxes on the food boxes/bags.

[Darth Wong]

Fast food restaurants have been singled out for special criticism, and in some jurisdictions are forced to display nutrition information. But all restaurants should have at least some nutritional information on their menus.

[Stark]

Fast food restaurants have been singled out for special criticism, and in some jurisdictions are forced to display nutrition information. But all restaurants should have at least some nutritional information on their menus.

It's especially amusing because fast food is bad, but much expensive 'gourmet cuisine' is just as bad for you... but you have no way of knowing. I can go to an expensive French restaurant and buy something that's basically a ball of grease just like a hamburger, but it's not tarred as 'fast food' so it's okay.

After all, it's expensive, so who can afford it all the time thus health impact = zero.

[Kodiak]

Fast food restaurants have been singled out for special criticism, and in some jurisdictions are forced to display nutrition information. But all restaurants should have at least some nutritional information on their menus.

Red Lobster is a big one in my book; They post info about their "light" menu, but don't have any info about their fried cheese biscuits that come out by the basketful. I try not to eat at any place where I don't know what's in the food I'm eating, and some places make it damn near impossible to find out. WeightWatcher's website has a pretty good listing of most national franchises, and I recommend it.