100000 Turks Rally In Support Of Secular System

[wautd]

Good for them

Turks Rally In Support Of Secular System



ANKARA (AFP)--Tens of thousands of people rallied in the Turkish capital Ankara Sunday to support the country's secular system, which some consider under threat from the ruling Islamic-rooted party.

Turkish television channels put the number of demonstrators at 100,000.

"Turkey is secular and will remain secular," chanted the marchers who gathered in a city center square under the watch of thousands of police officers.

Hardline secularists claiming to be the inheritors of the line laid down by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, founder of the Turkish republic, and religious conservatives have struggled for power and influence for decades.

Sunday's demonstration was organized by the Kemalist Thought Association, a group which defends the founder's legacy of a modern, secular Turkey.

The marchers carrying Turkish flags and pictures of Ataturk were headed for the mausoleum of the "father of the Turks," the traditional rallying point of those in favor of secular rule.

Secularists are concerned about the rise of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Justice and Development Party, or AKP, to power since 2002.

They accuse the AKP of seeking to replace Turkey's secular system with a regime based on Sharia, or Koranic law.

The AKP admit to having religious roots but reject the epithet Islamist.

[Thanas]

It doesn't help that the secularists are also the most close-minded nationalists as well. I'd rather have Erdogan who - despite being a nationalist as well - at least is able to talk about Turkey's problems instead of sweeping them under the rug.

[Stargate Nerd]

It doesn't help that the secularists are also the most close-minded nationalists as well. I'd rather have Erdogan who - despite being a nationalist as well - at least is able to talk about Turkey's problems instead of sweeping them under the rug.

You'd rather have a religious fundamentalist with despotic tendencies and a bad temper?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It doesn't help that the secularists are also the most close-minded nationalists as well. I'd rather have Erdogan who - despite being a nationalist as well - at least is able to talk about Turkey's problems instead of sweeping them under the rug.

You'd rather have a religious fundamentalist with despotic tendencies and a bad temper?

You have no real idea what you are talking about do you?

These nationalists are more than happy to white wash past atrocities committed by nationalists no less, and happily pursue vindictive policies against minorities till this day.

[Stargate Nerd]

It doesn't help that the secularists are also the most close-minded nationalists as well. I'd rather have Erdogan who - despite being a nationalist as well - at least is able to talk about Turkey's problems instead of sweeping them under the rug.

You'd rather have a religious fundamentalist with despotic tendencies and a bad temper?

You have no real idea what you are talking about do you?

These nationalists are more than happy to white wash past atrocities committed by nationalists no less, and happily pursue vindictive policies against minorities till this day.

Who are you referring to as nationalists? The fascist MHP party? Because they're hardly secular. In fact when Erdogan tried to amend whatever laws keep female students with head scarves out of universities, the MHP gave their full support in parliament.

And the last secular (leftist) government under Ecevit was actually the one who recognized Kurdish rights and abolished the death penalty. (Under EU pressure sure, but hardly pursuant of vindictive policies against minorities).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Who are you referring to as nationalists? The fascist MHP party? Because they're hardly secular. In fact when Erdogan tried to amend whatever laws keep female students with head scarves out of universities, the MHP gave their full support in parliament.

And the last secular (leftist) government under Ecevit was actually the one who recognized Kurdish rights and abolished the death penalty. (Under EU pressure sure, but hardly pursuant of vindictive policies against minorities).

Nationalists include the Military (The biggest one you neglected to mention and sworn defender of Atatürk's legacy) which has gone and brought down at least one government, and numerous other groups which may or may not be political groups, or fringe groups. Some of which went and killed an Armenian journalist or writer I forgot not too long ago, and the government actively persecuted a Turkish Nobel Laureate writer for insulting Turkishness not too long ago.

The relaxation of policies with regards to the Kurds was fairly recent and largely through international pressure. However, the arrest of a Kurdish parliamentarian, Leyla Zana, for "spreading separatism" in 2008 just goes to show hamstrung the Turkish government continues to be on the issue of "turkishness". The government has steadfastly refused to recognise the wrongs committed against the Greeks, the Armenians, etc. Events such as the Greek pogrom in the 50s which led to the sharp depopulation of Greeks in Istanbul continue to be pushed under the rug with no hope of any redress in the next few decades. If by anything, the real problem is the Turks refuse to face up to reality of their actions and prefer to try to forget it ever happened, either out of embarrassment, or because they regard these other races as a threat to their national unity and thus must be oppressed or driven out.

[Stargate Nerd]

Nationalists include the Military

Hardly a monolithic entity that could be described as nationalistic in one swoop.

(The biggest one you neglected to mention and sworn defender of Atatürk's legacy)

Which I assume you think is bad? Republicanism? Separation of Church (mosque really) and state? Embracing of science and education?

which has gone and brought down at least one government,

The latest being a repulsive hard core Islamist regime disinterested in any progress and EU membership. Is this really a problem?

and numerous other groups which may or may not be political groups, or fringe groups.

Like?

Some of which went and killed an Armenian journalist or writer I forgot not too long ago,

Who murdered Hrant Dink? The Military? Or the Fringe groups?

As for the actual murderer, the official story is that the murder was a fascist teen.

and the government actively persecuted a Turkish Nobel Laureate writer for insulting Turkishness not too long ago.

Which is retarded, but really not nearly as bad as things that go on in Sharia states.

The relaxation of policies with regards to the Kurds was fairly recent and largely through international pressure.

Something I acknowledged. The important face remains that it was still a process started under a secular leftist government.

However, the arrest of a Kurdish parliamentarian, Leyla Zana, for "spreading separatism" in 2008 just goes to show hamstrung the Turkish government continues to be on the issue of "turkishness".

She was arrested for calling Abdullah Ocalan, a self-serving terrorist, a Kurdish leader. Hardly grounds to arrest someone in a democratic state, but also hardly an issue of harmstrung "Turkishness".

The government has steadfastly refused to recognise the wrongs committed against the Greeks, the Armenians, etc.

Because believe it or not there is two sides to every story. And the viewpoint of "the barbaric Turkish hordes butchering the peaceful Greeks in their smurf villages" is not only wrong but borderline racist.

Events such as the Greek pogrom in the 50s which led to the sharp depopulation of Greeks in Istanbul continue to be pushed under the rug with no hope of any redress in the next few decades. If by anything, the real problem is the Turks refuse to face up to reality of their actions and prefer to try to forget it ever happened, either out of embarrassment, or because they regard these other races as a threat to their national unity and thus must be oppressed or driven out.

I'm glad you brought this up. Because this terrible crime was committed and encouraged by the followers of Adnan Menderes, the prototype for regressive,corrupt, Islamist leaders with a despotic edge like Erdogan in Turkey. In fact it's one of the crimes he was charged with during his trial. Is this the kind of leader you guys want in a country trying to enter the EU?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hardly a monolithic entity that could be described as nationalistic in one swoop.

Which I assume you think is bad? Republicanism? Separation of Church (mosque really) and state? Embracing of science and education?

And you think the Islamists don't? Islamists aren't all one monolithic bloc of haters of technology, and the Ottoman Empire was traditionally pretty progressive when it came to technology, or have you forgotten that the numerals you use are Arabic in origin?

The latest being a repulsive hard core Islamist regime disinterested in any progress and EU membership. Is this really a problem?

Show evidence that this is a hard core Islamist regime that is not progressive. The goal of any Turkish government has been to continue the process of industrialisation and to attract foreign investment and Erdogan's goal initially was to join the EU to get that money to continue the modernisation of Turkey. So what you are talking about?

She was arrested for calling Abdullah Ocalan, a self-serving terrorist, a Kurdish leader. Hardly grounds to arrest someone in a democratic state, but also hardly an issue of harmstrung "Turkishness".

No, she called a Kurd a leader. That is an insult to turkishness because he wasn't a Turk.

Because believe it or not there is two sides to every story. And the viewpoint of "the barbaric Turkish hordes butchering the peaceful Greeks in their smurf villages" is not only wrong but borderline racist.

And your point? How does that change the fact that the Armenians were driven out of their homes? Where have I mentioned anything about hordes?

I'm glad you brought this up. Because this terrible crime was committed and encouraged by the followers of Adnan Menderes, the prototype for regressive,corrupt, Islamist leaders with a despotic edge like Erdogan in Turkey. In fact it's one of the crimes he was charged with during his trial. Is this the kind of leader you guys want in a country trying to enter the EU?

Again, what evidence is there to show that Erdogan has shown any despotic edge? He was elected in a fair election by his people, and he has yet to even show any despotism that would break the current constitution.

Furthermore, a goodly number of those who participated in that pogrom were nationalists. The Young Turks of which Attarturk was part of, were nationalists and were also involved in the Armenian genocide, so while you continue cherry picking details, it does not change the fact that nationalism played a huge role in all these debacles, and that the incident itself was motivated by nationalism, namely Greek/Turk Cyprus issue.

[Samuel]

have you forgotten that the numerals you use are Arabic in origin?

Uh, the Turks aren't Arabs. They were not the ones who brought the numeral system to Europe.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

have you forgotten that the numerals you use are Arabic in origin?

Uh, the Turks aren't Arabs. They were not the ones who brought the numeral system to Europe.

He was so hard on the idea that the Turkish leaders were Islamists to which I pointed out that not all Islamists were of the same stripe. The point still stands.

[Stargate Nerd]

Hardly a monolithic entity that could be described as nationalistic in one swoop.

Which I assume you think is bad? Republicanism? Separation of Church (mosque really) and state? Embracing of science and education?

And you think the Islamists don't? Islamists aren't all one monolithic bloc of haters of technology, and the Ottoman Empire was traditionally pretty progressive when it came to technology, or have you forgotten that the numerals you use are Arabic in origin?

We are not talking about Islamists worldwide, were talking about the current Islamists in power in Turkey. And yes the AKP is rather more monolithicly Islamist because of it's inherent nature as a Islamist party than the Army where not every general is a ultra-nationalist fascist.

As for military technology, Iran is progressive when it comes to technology too, they're enriching Uranium, and yet I bet the number of people who believe in evolution in Iran is even lower than in Turkey.

Show evidence that this is a hard core Islamist regime that is not progressive. The goal of any Turkish government has been to continue the process of industrialisation and to attract foreign investment and Erdogan's goal initially was to join the EU to get that money to continue the modernisation of Turkey. So what you are talking about?

I'm talking about Necmettin Erbakan whose was the latest government to be brought down in a coup in the 90s.

No, she called a Kurd a leader. That is an insult to turkishness because he wasn't a Turk.

Prove that she was really imprisoned for calling a Kurd a leader then.

And your point? How does that change the fact that the Armenians were driven out of their homes? Where have I mentioned anything about hordes?

You know what nevermind. That's a whole different topic. What's important is to determine what makes you think that a Islamist sharia regime in Turkey would make any concessions to Greeks or Armenians, when even now Erdogan hasn't opened the ports to Cyprus after pledging to do so in 2004?

Again, what evidence is there to show that Erdogan has shown any despotic edge? He was elected in a fair election by his people, and he has yet to even show any despotism that would break the current constitution.

He has arrested hundreds of academicians, musicians, other artists and civilians on baseless ground of conspiracy. He has the audacity to do so with Army breating down his neck, who knows what he's capable of once he successfuly pushes the Army to the sidelines.

But hell even the Economist which has been a staunch AKP and Erdogan supporter said he had an authoritarian bent.

Attempts by more radical AK types to emphasise the role of Islam in public life spooked others. The AK incumbent lost in Antalya, even though Mr Erdogan is said to have visited the resort 26 times. Mr Erdogan’s authoritarian bent and his quarrels with the secular press did not help. On the other side, Mr Erdogan’s failure to deliver on issues dear to his pious constituents, such as easing the ban on the headscarf, allowed Felicity to snatch some voters away. AK no longer unites the different strands of Turks, be they sectarian, ethnic or ideological, as it once did. The conundrum for Mr Erdogan is how to please one constituency without antagonising another.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/d ... d=13415242

Furthermore, a goodly number of those who participated in that pogrom were nationalists. The Young Turks of which Attarturk was part of, were nationalists and were also involved in the Armenian genocide, so while you continue cherry picking details, it does not change the fact that nationalism played a huge role in all these debacles, and that the incident itself was motivated by nationalism, namely Greek/Turk Cyprus issue.

Under who's watch did it happen? Menderes. Who was charged and convicted? Menderes. What kind of leader was Menderes? A religion pushing corrupt Authoritarian like who? Erdogan.

As for bringing up nationalists again. Thanas made a claim that the secularists are the nationalists and you seemingly built on that. So before we begin crucifying the nationalists again, provide proof that the secularists in Turkey are the same as nationalists.

[Stargate Nerd]

have you forgotten that the numerals you use are Arabic in origin?

Uh, the Turks aren't Arabs. They were not the ones who brought the numeral system to Europe.

He was so hard on the idea that the Turkish leaders were Islamists to which I pointed out that not all Islamists were of the same stripe. The point still stands.

Islamic ≠ Islamist