Why I hate my state's Voters (Editorial)

[The Yosemite Bear]

Happy Independance Day

I went to work and was greeted to the SF chron. of an unknown number of days old, showing voters suggesting a recall of our Govenator because of the budget mess. The Voters are blaming the office again FOR A MESS THEY HAVE CAUSED. This is nothing new, every Govenor since Jerry Brown has had to deal with the black hole cause by my state's "Bread and Circuses" Libertard voters who voted for Prop 13.

I can thank those anti-tax folks for ruining public schools, and safety/health programs for the working class just as I was newly arrived to the school system. I watched programs dissapear, I became AWARE, my eyes were opened, I was no longer a child (purhaps taking care of a hippie wild child of a mom had a start in it, but no Prop 13's effects in 1979 and onwards fiscal budget years was my awakening. Since then for nine long years, I was unable to vote and watched year after year, as the voters approved more and more issues that dragged the state deeper and deeper in debt.

I didn't need to work in the Appalatian Coal Mines under the Truck system to understand Debt Slavery, It was branded on me by Howard Jarvis and later Grover Norquist, and you the California Voter, have kept me deeper and deeper in debt every year of my life since I was eight years old. This most recent tradgedies has shown, you are a bunch of self centered sociopathic vox populi.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Prop 13 is starting to receive some attention because of this.

Citizens want to change Prop 13

SAN FRANCISCO (KGO) -- Some blame California's current budget crisis in part on a decision voters made more than 30 years ago. Proposition 13 did much more than cap property taxes and now there is an effort underway to change it.

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The daunting two-thirds majority requirement to pass a budget and the cap on property taxes both stem from Proposition 13. It's what many say is a big reason why we're in this budget mess, but one group is taking action.

People came together Wednesday night to come up with ideas on how to modify Proposition 13. The concerned citizens believe altering the voter-approved initiative will help alleviate the budget crisis that emerges in Sacramento all too often.

"I'm worried. I care about communities and families and I want us to get the resources we need," says Oakland resident Aspen Baker.

Voters approved Proposition 13 in 1978. It places an annual one-percent cap on property taxes. It also requires a two-thirds majority of the legislature to raise taxes and approve state budgets. Californians voted overwhelmingly for the initiative -- with 64.8 percent voting yes -- and as a result, funding for key state programs have taken a dip. California for instance used to rank fifth in per pupil spending, now it ranks 47th.

"Without having a discussion about Proposition 13, there's no way to really fix the budget," says San Francisco Assessor Phil Ting.

Ting is helping lead the push to change Prop 13. The plan is to modify tax rates or assessments on commercial property -- which could bring in an estimated $7.5 billion if enacted today.

"We need to look at all the sacred cows in our budget system and this is probably the biggest one," says Ting.

But GOP strategist Sean Walsh says targeting commercial property would drive businesses away, which is the last thing California's economy needs.

"You have small businesses and medium businesses that are closing everyday in this recession and if you want to drive them out of business and out of town, likkity split this is the type of thing that you would do," says Walsh.

These people, though, are unconvinced. They're counting on their grass roots strategy to bring about changes to Prop 13.

"When my kids go to school, I want them to get the social services that we as Californians historically have always had," says San Francisco resident Gaurav Mehta.

Other efforts are underway in hopes of fixing California's problems.

The Bay Area Council, for example, wants to ask voters next year to call a state constitutional convention to address the state's budget process.

So my understanding is that voters can make budget changes with a simple majority but their elected representatives, whose job includes writing proper budget measures for the state, require a 2/3rds vote to get any budget plan through. Yeah, it sounds pretty much ass backwards to me as well.

[Themightytom]

Don't feel like you're alone though, My state rejected a seatbelt law. We are ALSO rediculously underfunded because we refuse to implement an income tax. We were seriously trying to find our way out of the recession by brining in more booze gambling and porn so we could tax it.

its not just california, its the whole US. We're eeeeeediots.

[Pablo Sanchez]

California for instance used to rank fifth in per pupil spending, now it ranks 47th.

Seriously? Maybe I'm weird, coming from the context of the Midwest where education is heavily emphasized (the Iowa State Quarter features a schoolhouse and the phrase "Foundation in Education"), but I'd think that Californians would take a look at a decline like that and kind of shit themselves.

"You have small businesses and medium businesses that are closing everyday in this recession and if you want to drive them out of business and out of town, likkity split this is the type of thing that you would do," says Walsh.

What about the effects of crumbling social infrastructure due to catastrophic underfunding? I mean, what parents are going to move to CA if they can expect to enroll their kids in one of the nation's worst school systems? If this budget issue isn't fixed, companies are going to start moving out of the state in a few years anyway, because they'll find it more and more difficult to get quality personnel to tolerate living in California!

[MKSheppard]

This is nothing new, every Govenor since Jerry Brown has had to deal with the black hole cause by my state's "Bread and Circuses" Libertard voters who voted for Prop 13.

We in Maryland actually have a LOWER overall tax rate than in California; and we're considered "goddamn liberal taxers"; yet while we have problems with our state budget (who doesn't these days); it isn't the humongous black hole that is California's budget.

There are other more structural reasons as to why California's entire government is a mess, not just the red herring of Proposition 13; but it's always Prop 13 that gets trotted out.

EDIT: From a previous thread:

---------------------------

Railing against proposition 13, and "LOL NO PROPERTY TAXES" is a massive strawman, when you study comparative tax rates between states.

California

Corporate
Corporations other than banks and financials 8.84%
Banks and financials 10.84%

Income
-- 1 percent on the first $7,168 of taxable income
-- 2 percent on taxable income between $7,169 and $16,994
-- 4 percent on taxable income between $16,995 and $26,821
-- 6 percent on taxable income between $26,822 and $37,233
-- 8 percent on taxable income between $37,234 and $47,055
-- 9.3 percent on taxable income of $47,056 and above

Sales
-- 8.25% percent

Property
--1% of assessed value, cannot increase more than 2% a year.

Maryland (Selected since it's a liberal-ish state, and because I live there).

Corporate
--8.25%

Income
-- 2 percent on the first $1,000 of taxable income
-- 3 percent on taxable income between $1,001 and $2,000
-- 4 percent on taxable income between $2,001 and $3,000
-- 4.75 percent on taxable income between $3,001 and $150,000
-- 5 percent on taxable income between $150,001 and $300,000
-- 5.25 percent on taxable income between $300,001 and $500,000
-- 5.5 percent on taxable income between $500,001 and $1 million
-- 6.25 percent on taxable income more than $1 million.

Sales
--6%

Property
$0.112 per $100 of value for State
$0.661 per $100 of value for Montgomery County (where I live)

California Tax Bill

Income
Income of $50,000: $4,650

Housing (NOTE: Before the financial market collapse, the median single family home price was $418k in CA in 2008; now it's $247k)
$250,000 home price -- $2,500

Sales
Family spends $300 a week on groceries -- $1,287

Total rough yearly tax bill: $8,437

Maryland Tax Bill

Income
Income of $50,000: $2,375

Sales
Family spends $300 a week on groceries -- $936

Housing
$250,000 home price -- $1,932.50

Total rough yearly tax bill: $5,243.5

-----------------------------------------------------

So you have two liberal-ish states, on opposite coasts; and the tax bill for a genericized family is:
CA: $8,437
MD: $5,243.50

So the question is: Why should the genericized liberal family stay in a place that burns down every other year; has high tax rates, with a programmed tax rate increase coming; when they can move across country to a state with the same liberal values they do, but saves them $3,194 a year?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I don't quite understand the point of the state tax comparisons. What does higher tax rates in California have to do with the massive budget deficit or the fact that the legislature can't work to fix the budget holes because they never get enough votes to get anything done?

[Samuel]

So the question is: Why should the genericized liberal family stay in a place that burns down every other year; has high tax rates, with a programmed tax rate increase coming; when they can move across country to a state with the same liberal values they do, but saves them $3,194 a year?

Because California is not a God forsaken location where the very skies turn against you every half a year?

That and the fact that California has the world's 6th largest (or was it 5th?) economy in the world- there might just be the possibility of jobs.

Or maybe taxes are higher because the state has large amounts of rural area and needs large amounts of infrastructure to insure water for the entire population?

I don't quite understand the point of the state tax comparisons. What does higher tax rates in California have to do with the massive budget deficit or the fact that the legislature can't work to fix the budget holes because they never get enough votes to get anything done?

Nothing.

[MKSheppard]

I don't quite understand the point of the state tax comparisons.

Why is it that so many other liberal states like Oregon, Washington, and Maryland, can actually tax less than California, yet retain many of the social programs in California?

Hmm?

Another thing is; why does it cost $40k a year to incarcerate someone in California, compared with the national average of $23k?

Oh right, the powerful Public Sector Unions in California.

But nobody is willing to do what needs to be done, and break the unions.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Hey Shep, why doesn't your post mention Maryland's local income tax system which adds a flat 2-3% to everybody's income tax return?

[MKSheppard]

Hey Shep, why doesn't your post mention Maryland's local income tax system which adds a flat 2-3% to everybody's income tax return?

Because I was doing a generalized MD vs CA tax rate. Taking into account the 58 counties in California and 24 in Maryland would result in a report as long as one of Dominos Atheos posts, which nobody would read.

[Rahvin]

Why is it that so many other liberal states like Oregon, Washington, and Maryland, can actually tax less than California, yet retain many of the social programs in California?

Hmm?

Another thing is; why does it cost $40k a year to incarcerate someone in California, compared with the national average of $23k?

Oh right, the powerful Public Sector Unions in California.

But nobody is willing to do what needs to be done, and break the unions.

And how is the California state legislature to do any of that, or restructure where our money goes to promote efficiency, or in fact do anything else related to the budget if they require a 2/3 majority to pass the budget?

Are you really not understanding why everything you've said in this thread is completely irrelevant when the legislature is almost compeltely unable to pass any sort of budgetary changes?

We struggle to pass budgets on time when we don't require major changes to deal with economic catastrophe.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Because I was doing a generalized MD vs CA tax rate. Taking into account the 58 counties in California and 24 in Maryland would result in a report as long as one of Dominos Atheos posts, which nobody would read.

Ah, I see. You assumed that California also allows counties to levy local income taxes. But according to this website Maryland is pretty much the only state that does this. I poked around, looking at every state that borders Maryland, as well as a random selection of others throughout the country, and every one I looked at simply had the normal "generalized" rate. So the California rates you posted represent the actual income tax, while the numbers for Maryland are a fantasy which you could only pay if you were resident in the state but not resident in any of its counties or the city of Baltimore.

My understanding is that most states have their counties and localities support themselves via local sales and property taxes and their efforts are supplemented by the state government, which would then charge a higher state income tax rate to account for this. I guess Maryland's counties are more autonomous than the norm, but this additional tax burden undermines the argument you were trying to make and will require running those numbers again.

[MKSheppard]

And how is the California state legislature to do any of that, or restructure where our money goes to promote efficiency, or in fact do anything else related to the budget if they require a 2/3 majority to pass the budget?

Two-thirds majority hun?

How is it that the MD State Legislature can pass budget bills with the following vote counts:

FY2009 Budget:
MD House (107-29) 78%
MD Senate (36-11) 76%

Oh wait, we're competent, unlike California.

[Phantasee]

My 10% flat tax laughs at all this complicated number crunching!

http://www.finance.alberta.ca/calc-script/tax_calc.html
A tax calculator for figuring out your income tax in Alberta.

[MKSheppard]

My understanding is that most states have their counties and localities support themselves via local sales and property taxes and their efforts are supplemented by the state government, which would then charge a higher state income tax rate to account for this. I guess Maryland's counties are more autonomous than the norm, but this additional tax burden undermines the argument you were trying to make and will require running those numbers again.

There's also the point to make that you have to generalize at some point, because taxes can be levied at a pretty low level.

For example, my dad has to pay taxes to the City of Warrenton, VA where he lives; on his vehicle(s).

I suppose I can recalculate my numbers based around a Hippotheticle (RAR!) resident living in say.....a suburb of Los Angeles, CA and one living in a suburb of Baltimore. MD.

[Pablo Sanchez]

How is it that the MD State Legislature can pass budget bills with the following vote counts:
FY2009 Budget:
MD House (107-29) 78%
MD Senate (36-11) 76%

Oh wait, we're competent, unlike California.

Both houses of Maryland's legislature also happen to be over 70% Democratic, while California has just enough Republicans to block a 2/3s majority. Considering the libertarian character of the California GOP it's not surprising that they never cooperate with any budget plan that involves raising taxes.

[Stargate Nerd]

How is it that the MD State Legislature can pass budget bills with the following vote counts:
FY2009 Budget:
MD House (107-29) 78%
MD Senate (36-11) 76%

Oh wait, we're competent, unlike California.

Both houses of Maryland's legislature also happen to be over 70% Democratic, while California has just enough Republicans to block a 2/3s majority. Considering the libertarian character of the California GOP it's not surprising that they never cooperate with any budget plan that involves raising taxes.

Ah, so there's where Maryland's competence comes from.

[Guardsman Bass]

Another thing is; why does it cost $40k a year to incarcerate someone in California, compared with the national average of $23k?

I'm not going to pretend that the public sector unions aren't part of this, but keep in mind that California is significantly larger than most states (and since the national average includes lowly-populated states as well as the giant states, it gets weighed down), with a correspondingly larger prison population. That increases costs of incarceration all around, not just from wages (and since you need more security guards, they'll probably have to be higher), but from things like extra prisons, etc.

[Samuel]

Another thing is; why does it cost $40k a year to incarcerate someone in California, compared with the national average of $23k?

I'm not going to pretend that the public sector unions aren't part of this, but keep in mind that California is significantly larger than most states (and since the national average includes lowly-populated states as well as the giant states, it gets weighed down), with a correspondingly larger prison population. That increases costs of incarceration all around, not just from wages (and since you need more security guards, they'll probably have to be higher), but from things like extra prisons, etc.

You are thinking the three strikes law.

[MKSheppard]

That increases costs of incarceration all around, not just from wages (and since you need more security guards, they'll probably have to be higher), but from things like extra prisons, etc.

Well, like most things, the cost scales down in proportion to how big it is; thus, it's more efficient to run a bigger prison than it is to run a small prison; because you will need guards on the perimeter to prevent escapes, and the length of the perimeter increases much slower than the interior area of the perimeter being guarded.