Prez. Clinton gets 2 Americans in North Korea released.

[Knife]

Zod, thanks for the link. Please don't misinterpret me, I'm glad the ladies are free - I really don't care who got the deal done.

And, yes, I'm thinking out loud again...WHY would the North Koreans narrow their choice of accepted negotiators down to Kerry or Bill C.? I understand the article's claim that it was a matter of respect, and expanding on that I can understand why Kim Il Sung would not want to negotiate with Hillary (she's a girl, you know ), but the only conclusion I can draw is that the North Korean government wanted to get these journalists out of their country after making hay with their incarceration and did not see anyone in the current administration who would allow them to free them and save face at the same time. Hence, they chose a Democrat Senator and Democrat ex-President. It's ironic in my eyes that their chosen negotiators are both Democrats, same as the ruling party in the US right now. I fully expect North Korea to ask for more "favors" to them in the way of food for their people, now that they've shown that a Demo politician (retired or not) was able to move them to mercy and release the reporters.

lol, you are assuming they have the option. Let's face it; they were looking for the win here. We gave it to them with Bill. They did not have any power except to punish the two girls... we gave them the 'saving face' option with bill.

[Count Chocula]

^ You're 100%, the Norks got the win here. I anticipate "North Korean famine!" or "Swine Flu! Millions Die!" headlines in the next few months as Il-Sung's second phase to get more food/money to his people.

[Knife]

^ You're 100%, the Norks got the win here. I anticipate "North Korean famine!" or "Swine Flu! Millions Die!" headlines in the next few months as Il-Sung's second phase to get more food/money to his people.

that is defeating the point. We Won and THEY WON. We both win. Why is that bad?

[Count Chocula]

^ Getting to the root cause, it's bad because the Norks were shitheads for arresting the reporters in the first place, and then were double shits for holding them and threatening dire consequences for the "foreign spies."

What we've just done, IMO, is thrown a bone to a rabid Rottweiler as a reward for him having just bitten someone on their thigh instead of ripping out their throat. The repatriated reporters are the winners; I can't imagine that anyone in Foggy Bottom with more than two neurons to rub together thinks anything has improved in our relations with North Korea.

[Isolder74]

Didn't they illegally cross a border to grab them in the first place?

[Knife]

^ Getting to the root cause, it's bad because the Norks were shitheads for arresting the reporters in the first place,

haven't we done the same? Boarder wars in the US?

and then were double shits for holding them and threatening dire consequences for the "foreign spies."

I'm a warwhore (to quote Elfdart), but even I can cough up GITMO to counter your assertion.

What we've just done, IMO, is thrown a bone to a rabid Rottweiler as a reward for him having just bitten someone on their thigh instead of ripping out their throat. The repatriated reporters are the winners; I can't imagine that anyone in Foggy Bottom with more than two neurons to rub together thinks anything has improved in our relations with North Korea.[/quote]

Seriously, you just rentered the realm of REALPOLITIK. Thank you, you've been missing for twenty to forty years.

[Count Chocula]

Seriously, you just rentered the realm of REALPOLITIK. Thank you, you've been missing for twenty to forty years.

Ahh, it's good to be in from the cold. To an even colder realm, that of international politics. It still frosts my balls that those reporters were detained (I won't say put through hell, because I have no idea how they were treated) as an attention-grabbing don't-look-at-the-ICBMs-we're-developing PR stunt. They deserved better.

[Nephtys]

Didn't they illegally cross a border to grab them in the first place?

Allegedly. By a nation known for it's paranoia, ridiculous propaganda, and fabrication of claims for international sensationism.

The story from what I've read was that they were traveling along an a thin part of a river demarkating the border for a news report, and went over slightly too far, at which point the NK army arrested them.

[Knife]

Seriously, you just rentered the realm of REALPOLITIK. Thank you, you've been missing for twenty to forty years.

Ahh, it's good to be in from the cold. To an even colder realm, that of international politics. It still frosts my balls that those reporters were detained (I won't say put through hell, because I have no idea how they were treated) as an attention-grabbing don't-look-at-the-ICBMs-we're-developing PR stunt. They deserved better.

Welcome to the real world where Real Politiks works. Americanism exceptionalism indeed.

[Isolder74]

Didn't they illegally cross a border to grab them in the first place?

Allegedly. By a nation known for it's paranoia, ridiculous propaganda, and fabrication of claims for international sensationism.

The story from what I've read was that they were traveling along an a thin part of a river demarkating the border for a news report, and went over slightly too far, at which point the NK army arrested them.

I was talking about the Norks not the reporters.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

^ You're 100%, the Norks got the win here. I anticipate "North Korean famine!" or "Swine Flu! Millions Die!" headlines in the next few months as Il-Sung's second phase to get more food/money to his people.

Fortunately I don't think zombie Kim Il-Sung still runs North Korea in reality.

[Simon_Jester]

Seriously...what's Bill's angle on this?

At a guess, Bill's angle is that he wants to have some semblance of access to the halls of power. He doesn't want to be left entirely out of the loop, even though everyone has a perfect right to leave him out.

As a former president who is de facto retired, his best bet is to use his name recognition and celebrity power as a sort of semi-official envoy... much like Jimmy Carter.
_______

I bet that the Norks would have released these journalists if Hillary had negotiated the deal, or hell if the President had spent ten minutes on the phone with Kim Jong-Il. What I don't get is the "cui bono" setup for either the North Koreans or Bill C., since the North Koreans released a pair of journalists to, effectively, an American civilian. Granted, an ex-President with a SecState wife, but still a civvie. Why didn't we just send Hillary to do the job?

Several points:
1)The Secretary of State is both high-ranking and very busy. Both of those are reasons to send someone else to go take care of a specific task, especially a specific task that involves negotiating with a bunch of loathsome little buggers like the North Korean government.

2)If a high-ranking government official starts talking to the North Koreans, the North Koreans can raise all sorts of talking points that have been bothering them for years, and the official can't say anything like "I'm not authorized to discuss that" or "that's outside the scope of the powers delegated to me." Which means that any meeting featuring a high-ranking American official is likely to get sidetracked into issues we are NOT prepared to negotiate with them over.

Whereas if we send a random civilian envoy, he can (truly) say that he has neither the power, nor the authorization, nor the information to talk about anything but the issue specifically being considered.

3)Someone who lives in a deeply antidemocratic society and is steeped in its internal politics may not realize just how powerless Bill Clinton really is these days. Therefore, he makes a good envoy to dictators, because he can make them think they are talking to someone important when they are not.
______

What we've just done, IMO, is thrown a bone to a rabid Rottweiler as a reward for him having just bitten someone on their thigh instead of ripping out their throat. The repatriated reporters are the winners; I can't imagine that anyone in Foggy Bottom with more than two neurons to rub together thinks anything has improved in our relations with North Korea.

The problem I see with this interpretation is that we're not going to improve our relations with North Korea any other way, either.

It takes two to improve relations, and right now we have zero. The North Koreans are fundamentally unwilling to sacrifice their objectives to make us happy, and we are largely unwilling to sacrifice ours to make them happy. So we have adopted a policy of giving North Korea the silent treatment, because that allows us to project the image that we don't care how obnoxious they make themselves.

So there's really no way to "improve relations" in the sense of "make them more disposed to do as we wish purely because we want them to, and not because they think it's in their own best interests." Neither side thinks a compromise is in its own interests, and that's not going to change any time soon.
________

Therefore, we have to deal with the North Koreans, accepting that "relations" are not good, just as we dealt with the Soviets over various issues during the Cold War. We don't have to love them in order to talk to them, especially when we have something specific that we want from them.

Trying to act as if the nation of North Korea does not exist and refusing to 'reward' them by talking to them is idiotic. North Korea is not going to shrivel up and die because we have chosen to withhold the glorious blessing of getting to negotiate with the US government.

[Darth Raptor]

BILL CLINTON going to NORTH KOREA and using DIPLOMACY to save JOURNALISTS. No wonder right-wingers are upset. The only alternative to letting them rot would have been sending a bunch of fiercely patriotic and no-nonsense commandos to shoot up the place on the way in and out. Probably with a wailing guitar background theme. And once they were safely back in South Korea, the stoic commander would finally lose it and put the ex-prisoners in their place with a heartfelt tirade. Only then would they realize what un-American fools they've been.

[Samuel]

Didn't they illegally cross a border to grab them in the first place?

Allegedly. By a nation known for it's paranoia, ridiculous propaganda, and fabrication of claims for international sensationism.

The story from what I've read was that they were traveling along an a thin part of a river demarkating the border for a news report, and went over slightly too far, at which point the NK army arrested them.

I was talking about the Norks not the reporters.

He was refering to China and the reporters.

[Vympel]

Former Democratic President goes to North Korea and saves the lives and freedom of two innocent journalists, touching press conference, awesome moment for everyone - who's going to be the unbelievable dicks about it? Republicans. Especially Dick Morris.

I mean for fuck's sake, his argument is so fucking asinine. Does anyone with two brain cells to rub together think North Korea's non-existent image was 'rehabilitated' by Bill Clinton going there and saving two journalists from living the rest of their natural lives in hell? I think I had a bit of reflux when that sleazy gelatinous lard said "oh well maybe they should stay there".

(The Young Turks is awesome, and Cenk is starting to appear on network tv. Hope he gets his own TV show!)

Jon Stewart on Dick Morris

[Anguirus]

Why do we care? We got what we want and they got what they want. Why isn't this a victory?

Because we hate them more than we like us.

Duh.

[Darth Wong]

What we've just done, IMO, is thrown a bone to a rabid Rottweiler as a reward for him having just bitten someone on their thigh instead of ripping out their throat. The repatriated reporters are the winners; I can't imagine that anyone in Foggy Bottom with more than two neurons to rub together thinks anything has improved in our relations with North Korea.

I love the way you always state FOXNews opinions as your own, but if anyone accuses you of being a party-line drone you immediately deny it. Nobody outside the Rabid Right would take this approach to what happened.

[ray245]

I love the way you always state FOXNews opinions as your own, but if anyone accuses you of being a party-line drone you immediately deny it. Nobody outside the Rabid Right would take this approach to what happened.

That's because screaming to everyone that "I'm not following the party line" is essentially proving that you are not following the party line.

[Azazal]

^ You're 100%, the Norks got the win here. I anticipate "North Korean famine!" or "Swine Flu! Millions Die!" headlines in the next few months as Il-Sung's second phase to get more food/money to his people.

Fortunately I don't think zombie Kim Il-Sung still runs North Korea in reality.

I'm not too sure of that, Dear Leader there looked pretty bad in the pictures with Bill. North Korea could be working on a secret dead leaders project.

[Elfdart]

Next time one of the war whores like Dick Head Morris whines about Bubba getting the reporters out of North Korea, someone should ask them if Clinton should take them back.



Fuck you, Dick Morris!

[Glocksman]

Former Democratic President goes to North Korea and saves the lives and freedom of two innocent journalists, touching press conference, awesome moment for everyone - who's going to be the unbelievable dicks about it? Republicans. Especially Dick Morris.

I mean for fuck's sake, his argument is so fucking asinine. Does anyone with two brain cells to rub together think North Korea's non-existent image was 'rehabilitated' by Bill Clinton going there and saving two journalists from living the rest of their natural lives in hell? I think I had a bit of reflux when that sleazy gelatinous lard said "oh well maybe they should stay there".

(The Young Turks is awesome, and Cenk is starting to appear on network tv. Hope he gets his own TV show!)

Jon Stewart on Dick Morris

Randi Rhodes used 'toe sucking pervert' to describe Morris when talking about his comments.
If it weren't true, I'd be offended by the use of an untrue personal attack.
As it is it's absolutely true that he's a toe sucking pervert*, and I wonder if he'd feel the same way if it'd been his wife/daughter/etc., that had been freed.

Somehow I doubt it.

The Young Turks are on XM's 'America Left' in the morning.
I agree it's an awesome show.


*Personally I could care less how one adult gets his jollies as long as his partner(s) are consenting adults.
My problem with Morris has to do with his hypocrisy in embracing the worst elements of the Republican party and nothing to do with his choice of sexual outlets.