F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

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F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by MKSheppard »

Thanks to Lonestar who found this:

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In a significant about turn the MoD has indicated that it will ditch the jump-jet version of Joint Strike Fighter in favour of the conventional model, as the planes for its two new aircraft carriers.

The Daily Telegraph has learnt from senior defence officials that an announcement will be made this autumn.

The move, welcomed by many defence analysts and the Royal Navy, will mean that the MoD has wasted £500 million of taxpayers' money paid to Rolls Royce to develop the highly complex engine to allow vertical take-off similar to the Harrier jump jet.
So now the MARINES! have to bear all the costs of F-35B development on 350~ airframes. Nice. :mrgreen:
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Julhelm »

Should've just stayed the hell away from VTOL in the first place.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by atg »

So are the two carriers are actually going to be re-designed for proper catapults (the article mentions the electro-magnetic ones being designed in America) or would they keep the ski-jump bow?
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Erm, the electromagnetic ones being designed by America's having its own fair share of problems... namely it causes EM interference on the delicate radar and communications equipment of the planes its supposed to catapult.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by atg »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Erm, the electromagnetic ones being designed by America's having its own fair share of problems... namely it causes EM interference on the delicate radar and communications equipment of the planes its supposed to catapult.
Yeah I know of the troubles being had, it was just what the article mentioned. They could opt for a conventional catapult if possible, I was more interested in seeing whether they'd keep the ski-jump or not.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Laughing Mechanicus »

As I posted about this in the HAB - I am glad to see we are getting the conventional version of the JSF for the CVF, but the reliance on the development of the EM catapult is a little worrying.

However as the Americans are currently trying to figure out how to get that same system working on a carrier they are due to complete a couple of years ahead of CVF's completion I'm fairly confident there will be some sort of solution available well before CVF needs to have them installed.
atg wrote:So are the two carriers are actually going to be re-designed for proper catapults (the article mentions the electro-magnetic ones being designed in America) or would they keep the ski-jump bow?
SeaSkimmer mentioned in the HAB that one advantage of this system is that it could potentially be made curved, so that it could work on a carrier with a ski-jump. Of course, that does pile even more technical risk upon the already fairly big pile of risk.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Vympel »

Excellent. It's all falling into place.

*skulks away, Mr. Burns-like*

The UK hasn't even begun building its carriers, right? So this decision was at least made at a good time, even if they wasted a shit-ton of money on the engine.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Vympel wrote:Excellent. It's all falling into place.

*skulks away, Mr. Burns-like*

The UK hasn't even begun building its carriers, right? So this decision was at least made at a good time, even if they wasted a shit-ton of money on the engine.
They'd have to pay for countless extra man hours to work on redesigning some features in the carrier, which aren't exactly non-trivial.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Laughing Mechanicus »

Vympel wrote:The UK hasn't even begun building its carriers, right? So this decision was at least made at a good time, even if they wasted a shit-ton of money on the engine.
The first steel for the first ship was cut only a matter of weeks ago, so not really.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:They'd have to pay for countless extra man hours to work on redesigning some features in the carrier, which aren't exactly non-trivial.
The CVF design actually specifically made allowances for the eventual upgrade of the carriers with a catapult system. Officially this was to accomodate whatever aircraft came after the JSF, but I have a feeling it was more of an insurance policy to prevent us being totally reliant on the JSF. This has allowed us to force the US to give us better access to the technology of the JSF by threatening to go with another option for our carrier based aircraft (Rafale, Seaphoon or whatever) and now it has allowed us to sidestep the problematic STOVL JSF entirely - so it seems like a policy that paid off.

Of course the integration will incur some costs, but I doubt they will be spectacular. The real cost will be the development and testing of the EM catapult technology - but I believe the US will be going hell for leather to complete that themselves lest they want their newest carrier to be a floating parking lot.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Ryan Thunder »

So, I gather from the comments here that VTOL in a fighter jet is a Very Bad Thing?
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

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Ryan Thunder wrote:So, I gather from the comments here that VTOL in a fighter jet is a Very Bad Thing?

Depends upon what it's being used for. V/STOL was a big deal because it could be used in an "expeditionary" manner...as in, off of a highway somewhere instead of an airfield. The problem is that it sucks up more gas(which reduces range) and can't lift something as heavy(which reduces payload and performance).
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Laughing Mechanicus »

Ryan Thunder wrote:So, I gather from the comments here that VTOL in a fighter jet is a Very Bad Thing?
A VTOL aircraft will always be more complex than conventional aircraft of similar capability. This means for a given set of capabilities the VTOL aircraft will almost certainly be more expensive than the equivalent conventional aircraft. If you do not specifically require a VTOL aircraft, then you probably should not use one.

With the F-35 I think the differences between types may be even worse - the STOVL F-35 has to have a big ducted fan behind the cockpit (like this) for take-off/landing, whereas on the conventional version that space is instead (if I recall correctly) going to contain an additional fuel tank. So the STOVL version sacrifices the extra fuel tank, then uses more fuel to take-off/land and also has to carry the fan around with it as dead-weight.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Zwinmar »

Keep in mind the mission of the Harrier. It was designed for close air support for ground forces, not dogfighting at 40,000 feet.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

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Julhelm wrote:Should've just stayed the hell away from VTOL in the first place.
Yeah.

It seems to me that trying to create a truly effective multirole fighter in a VTOL design would almost have to be more trouble than it's worth. If all you need is something with second-rate air to air combat capability that can haul bombs, fine... but something that's supposed to be able to win dogfights with dedicated air superiority fighters only a decade or two older than itself? I don't think so.

This is not an expert opinion, but... it just sounds like a shaky concept.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Darth Wong »

That statement is on par with "water is wet" in terms of being obvious. There are two things which always cause the price of a project to go sky-high:

1) Technically demanding design requirements.
2) Revisions in the design requirements.

Actually, the latter is worse than the former. For an engineer, one of the most hated words in the English language is "revision".
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Aaron Ash wrote:
With the F-35 I think the differences between types may be even worse - the STOVL F-35 has to have a big ducted fan behind the cockpit (like this) for take-off/landing, whereas on the conventional version that space is instead (if I recall correctly) going to contain an additional fuel tank. So the STOVL version sacrifices the extra fuel tank, then uses more fuel to take-off/land and also has to carry the fan around with it as dead-weight.
Its way worse then that. F-35B saves weight by having the smallest wing, which by default holds less fuel, and no fuel tank behind the pilot to fit the lift fan. That was the plan anyway. It wasn’t enough, so now the F-35B also has shrunken internal weapons bays which will only hold 1,000lb class bombs rather then 2,000lb. That change took place a couple years ago now. They also had to shift to using a lot more titanium parts on F-35B then the other models, and production numbers were cut to make up for that cost increase. The only reason even worse shit hasn’t happened is because the engine produces a little more thrust then expected, and the roll control posts now get less air flow (they suck at providing lift so all the air sent down them is lost lift).

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... nality.jpg
This gives a vague idea of the level of commonality these planes were projected to have early in the development process. Since then things have no doubt changes. Its worth pointing out though that this only shows structure, and the real money was is in the avionics R&D which are highly common to all three. Really, what should have been done was three completely separate airframes, with one engine for land/navy and one for marines plus all shared avionics. That probably would have worked out to be no more expensive, but logic was not running high in procurement in the early 1990s Clinton budgets when this was all shoved down the militaries throat.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Julhelm wrote:Should've just stayed the hell away from VTOL in the first place.
Yeah.

It seems to me that trying to create a truly effective multirole fighter in a VTOL design would almost have to be more trouble than it's worth. If all you need is something with second-rate air to air combat capability that can haul bombs, fine... but something that's supposed to be able to win dogfights with dedicated air superiority fighters only a decade or two older than itself? I don't think so.

This is not an expert opinion, but... it just sounds like a shaky concept.
Its not VTOL, that could have never worked. An effective VTOL fighter is nearly impossible. F-35B is very firmly STOVL and will not have any realistic vertical takeoff capability at all. This was never asked from it. As it was even for the purely subsonic Harrier vertical takeoff capability was barely realistic in any combat scenario. Only then for a strictly point defence mission, for everything else it always needed a short takeoff run or ideally a ski jump. X-35 did takeoff vertically in tests, but it had far lower empty weight then the F-35B will owing to lack of radar, avonics and full sized fuel tanks (even an empty take costs weight).
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Jim Raynor »

STOVL comes across as a very niche technology that will never be used on a large scale. This essay by a Marine aviator describes the uses of the technology, as well as all the operational difficulties. The Marines are probably not going to be launching planes off of roads, and it's not like you can sustain an air campaign without the fuel, weapons, etc that come with a real airbase. He did describe an interesting application in the Gulf War, when a single Harrier squadron was based extremely close to the front lines (just 40 miles behind) for ridiculous mission times measured in minutes. However, even constructing a small expeditionary airfield is a challenge, and such a base would be vulnerable to enemy ballistic missiles or even ground attack.

Getting F-35Bs on massive carriers like the Queen Elizabeth, while retaining the capability to add catapults, always seemed half-assed to me (unless it was a smart, under-handed move as Aaron Ash suggested). The ships could do so much more with F-35Cs, and you need catapults for E-2s anyway.

Are the other European countries buying F-35B at all? Probably the most realistic value of the STOVL version is to give their mini Harrier-carriers a (near) first-rate stealth fighter. The Harrier just isn't in the league of more conventional fighters.
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Re: F-35 costs just jumped by a big fraction....

Post by Sea Skimmer »


He did describe an interesting application in the Gulf War, when a single Harrier squadron was based extremely close to the front lines (just 40 miles behind) for ridiculous mission times measured in minutes. However, even constructing a small expeditionary airfield is a challenge, and such a base would be vulnerable to enemy ballistic missiles or even ground attack.
The British actually built a steel mat airfield from scratch to forward base Harriers in the Falklands War. It took them only a few days to do it with only a small engineering unit, and most equipment and matting lost when the Argentineans sank the Atlantic Conveyor.

Back in Nam meanwhile, we had the A-4 Skyhawk which was a conventional aircraft, but one with a damn short takeoff run. The Marines actually had portable catapults and arrestor wires they could setup to let the Skyhawks fly from about a 2,000 foot strip. That was small enough to fit in a realistic defended ground perimeter, something you could guard with a battalion and not a brigade or even division as a normal fixed airfield would demand.

Accurate ballistic missiles threaten everything; even moving armored formations can be successfully attacked. So that’s not really that specific a concern. Also F-35B could defend against those attacks, using the NCADE ABM missile now in development.


Getting F-35Bs on massive carriers like the Queen Elizabeth, while retaining the capability to add catapults, always seemed half-assed to me (unless it was a smart, under-handed move as Aaron Ash suggested). The ships could do so much more with F-35Cs, and you need catapults for E-2s anyway.
Well no money is allotted for E-2s, and since that’s easily a half billion dollar expenditure its not likely to appear out of thin air in a British defence budget. Also the F-35B is being bought for the RAF to fly as replacements for its own land based Harrier squadrons which support the British Army. The logic of replacing those specialist squadrons is highly open to question, but its currently a requirement.

Are the other European countries buying F-35B at all?
Current signed customers are the USMC, a joint RN-RAF pool, and the Italian Navy. At times the USAF and Israel have said they were considering changing a portion of F-35A orders to B models. Since the internal bays on the F-35B were shrunk that interest seems to have dried up. South Korea has expressed official interest recently. Spain is a strong potential customer, its just spending all its money on Typhoons right now and is no doubt waiting to see if F-35B works before it gets officially interested.

So it’s a niche market for sure, but a relatively large one. As in as its planned now its about half the size of the Typhoon market which is no small thing. Also, absolutely no other alternatives are on the horizon except to put the Harrier back into production. That’d be way retard expensive for such limited capability to happen.
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