Modern American Police

[Glocksman]

Speaking as a layman, the thing that appears 'odd' to me about the various European police forces isn't that they're armed with submachine guns in airports, etc., it's that a lot of them are national police forces.

From an American perspective, a genuinely national police force as ubiquitous as the European ones appear to be on the news is 'odd' because the USA doesn't have a national police force that's nearly as visible to the average citizen.

Sure the FBI is a national police force of sorts, but you don't see uniformed FBI agents patrolling the airports under normal circumstances either.

Perhaps the Canadians and Mexicans on the board would correct me if I'm wrong, but the closest we have in North America to national police forces along the lines of the Irish Garda (sp?) or Italian carabinieri would be the RCMP or the Mexican Federales.

I'm 42 years old and the only time I ever met an FBI or other Federal law enforcement agent was in 6th grade, when a couple of FBI agents came in and gave a presentation to the entire school about the FBI.

It stands out in my mind because one agent opened a violin case and pulled out a 1928 Thompson submachine gun and lectured us on both the history of the weapon and gun safety.

Outside of that, the only LE interactions I've had involved city police, county sheriff's deputies, and the Indiana State Police.

Frankly I'd probably either be thrilled to death or piss my pants if a genuine FBI or Secret Service agent came up and said he needed to speak with me.

[Thanas]

Speaking as a layman, the thing that appears 'odd' to me about the various European police forces isn't that they're armed with submachine guns in airports, etc., it's that a lot of them are national police forces.

That often is a misconception owing to several facts:
a)They largely wear the same uniforms
b) Security at airports and train stations is the job of the federal police as written in the constitution - in fact, every border security is their job.
c) Media likes to feature national police as they have a stronger reputation.

In reality, the federal police force has about 30.000 officers, which is less than the state of Bavaria (32.000) has. So in total, as a foreigner, you are more likely to see federal police - because in the past and today, border and transport security is a federal matter.

[Thanas]

Also, is anyone going to answer my point about the US police forces managing to kill 64x more of its citizens than Germany?

[Zed Snardbody]

Speaking as a layman, the thing that appears 'odd' to me about the various European police forces isn't that they're armed with submachine guns in airports, etc., it's that a lot of them are national police forces.

That often is a misconception owing to several facts:
a)They largely wear the same uniforms
b) Security at airports and train stations is the job of the federal police as written in the constitution - in fact, every border security is their job.
c) Media likes to feature national police as they have a stronger reputation.

In reality, the federal police force has about 30.000 officers, which is less than the state of Bavaria (32.000) has. So in total, as a foreigner, you are more likely to see federal police - because in the past and today, border and transport security is a federal matter.

Thats another difference. Until Recently our port of entry customs officers weren't even law enforcement. The boarder patrol was, but they were mostly in the field. Airport security was only federalized in 2001 and that wasn't expected to last to this point and they're not law enforcement. Airport and transit law enforcement (aside from air marshals) is handled by the local police departments.

The FBI is for the most part a plain clothes domestic intelligence and investigative agency more than anything else. Immigration and Customs Enforcement actually has more domestic investigatory and police powers than any other agency as a lot of its mandate is related to interstate commerce, but again they're typically not a uniformed agency aside from one or two subdivision (FPS among them recently in the news).

Until I actually worked for the government, my first interaction with federal law enforcement was actually a Postal Inspector of all people.

[Aaron]

Perhaps the Canadians and Mexicans on the board would correct me if I'm wrong, but the closest we have in North America to national police forces along the lines of the Irish Garda (sp?) or Italian carabinieri would be the RCMP or the Mexican Federales.

Well the RCMP is Canada's federal force, yes with around 18,000 members. Most of the Provinces also contract out there police services to the RCMP and they have a rather extensive list of responsibilities that you guys sub-divide into different agencies. It's not a paramilitary type force though, in fact their only role in that regard was switched over to the JTF (CF Special Forces) a number of years ago.

[CmdrWilkens]

Also, is anyone going to answer my point about the US police forces managing to kill 64x more of its citizens than Germany?

I don't know if there is an asnwer so much a an extension to my previous point: Its much more likely that you will have a weapon drawn on you in the US (by a factor of about 40-50 or so) but less likely once it happens that you will wind up dead. The fact that there are such a large number of incidences would have to go in to a whole host of data that I don't think any of us are equipped to look at in terms of social patterns, ownership rates, general crime rates, recidivism, etc. So put another way there is more use of force by Police in the US and why that is the case is something, I think, far more complex than we will likely be able to plumb.

[Thanas]

^Fair enough.

[CmdrWilkens]

I probably shoudl stop but I'm in a loquacious mood so there is no stopping me. I think it is a rather sad situation overall in the US in terms of the number of gun incidents. That we seem to rely on firearms speaks either to cultural or sociological problems which should probably be corrected. Not in terms of firearms being bad (as they are sometimes portrayed) but rather with the carefree way in which American culture treats them. I sem to recall, and this could be total malarky but I'm going with my recollection, a comparative study to hwo gun violence is presented in US versus Japanese media which pointed to very different attitudes towards the consequences of said use. I truly wish there was more available in terms of studying why the US has such a disproportionate number of gun violence deaths compared against other industrialized nations (I know we've touched mostly on Germany in this thread but they are obviously not alone) but it is such a multi-variable problem that I wonder if anything CAN be done about it without a massive sort of social upheaval.

[loomer]

Wouldn't part of it be the US's tumultuous history and the significant areas of low socio-economic ghetto?

You have films and holidays that celebrate violent conflict, which naturally lead to awesome films like The Godfather and thug movies and such, all of which aren't inherently troublesome...

But when you have people with no easily achievable, positive future viewing these things, seeing that crime does in fact pay and is also awesome, with easy access to black market firearms, you may have a significant cultural difficulty to overcome - and it only takes one or two generations to set up, too, so you may actually still be riding a wave of violence that started in the 70s with the spread of the Latino/African-American gangs and the decrease of 'older', 'respectable' crime groups like the Mafia who, though far from innocent, were better at dodging police attention and using threats instead of violence.

Once the gangs started, you ended up with a self propagating phenomenon, as I see it from a foreign point of view and from my studies of gang culture. Rap music and violent films help, to a degree, by glamourizing it, but only in the sense that they make the gangs a little more palatable to the people they recruit. Once you had a couple of waves of gangs, you had kids actually seeing gangbangers driving decent cars, wearing bling, eating good, while their parents could barely afford rent and food at the same time. With that in place, and the gangs recruiting almost entirely from the 12 - 18 age group - where people honestly aren't able to process a lot of the consequences of their actions and are rash and troublesome - it's not too hard to see why you're getting major problems with violence from lower socio-economic groups.

[His Divine Shadow]

I probably shoudl stop but I'm in a loquacious mood so there is no stopping me. I think it is a rather sad situation overall in the US in terms of the number of gun incidents. That we seem to rely on firearms speaks either to cultural or sociological problems which should probably be corrected. Not in terms of firearms being bad (as they are sometimes portrayed) but rather with the carefree way in which American culture treats them. I sem to recall, and this could be total malarky but I'm going with my recollection, a comparative study to hwo gun violence is presented in US versus Japanese media which pointed to very different attitudes towards the consequences of said use. I truly wish there was more available in terms of studying why the US has such a disproportionate number of gun violence deaths compared against other industrialized nations (I know we've touched mostly on Germany in this thread but they are obviously not alone) but it is such a multi-variable problem that I wonder if anything CAN be done about it without a massive sort of social upheaval.

I've thought for a few years now that it boils down to a few things(violent crime and murders in general), but mainly, you lack a decent social safety net. That breeds worser conditions for the poorer of society which in turn breeds harder criminals and more reasons for crime and drugs. Then combine it with a prison system that mostly makes the criminals unlikely to be able to return to working society, and the war on drugs. Factors like these combine to form a sort of perfect storm.

But eh, you're still below most eastern european levels of murders and such if that makes you feel better. Our neighbor estonia despite having no culture of violence or guns and becoming relatively prosperous, still has 10.7 murders per 100k, twice your amount. And even in the US a large part your crime of this nature is concentrated to a few hot spots in certain run down cities, being so geographically dense should mean it would be easier to rectify through social programs and thus take a big bite out of US crime stats, ofcourse any such efforts would take decades and require that the government is firmly behind it. Easier said than done.

[Netko]

But eh, you're still below most eastern european levels of murders and such if that makes you feel better. Our neighbor estonia despite having no culture of violence or guns and becoming relatively prosperous, still has 10.7 murders per 100k, twice your amount. And even in the US a large part your crime of this nature is concentrated to a few hot spots in certain run down cities, being so geographically dense should mean it would be easier to rectify through social programs and thus take a big bite out of US crime stats, ofcourse any such efforts would take decades and require that the government is firmly behind it. Easier said than done.

Its not so much Eastern Europe as countries that were part of the Soviet Union - everyone else pretty much has a murder rate in line with Western Europe and usually lower levels of overall crime.

But what you said about the worst hot spots for the US is true - the US overall rate is around 6 per 100k (definitely second world - comparable to Albania), however the concentration is staggering. There was an article here not so long ago which listed the worst cities in the US by murder rate - I can't remember which city exactly topped the list, but what I do remember is that compared to Zagreb where I live and which has the worst rate in Croatia (overall stat for Croatia is around 1.8 - comparable to Canada) it had a staggering 15 times worse murder rate, which indicates the murders in the US are disproportionally concentrated. Those cities taken alone would probably be comparable to Baghdad or similar. Also, the regional differences are staggering - going by murder rate, Louisiana is a third world shithole (20+ rate), while the northern states bordering Canada have a comparable rate to Europe and Canada.

* Numbers from wiki but its well sourced and in line with expectations

[Glocksman]

But eh, you're still below most eastern european levels of murders and such if that makes you feel better. Our neighbor estonia despite having no culture of violence or guns and becoming relatively prosperous, still has 10.7 murders per 100k, twice your amount. And even in the US a large part your crime of this nature is concentrated to a few hot spots in certain run down cities, being so geographically dense should mean it would be easier to rectify through social programs and thus take a big bite out of US crime stats, ofcourse any such efforts would take decades and require that the government is firmly behind it. Easier said than done.

Its not so much Eastern Europe as countries that were part of the Soviet Union - everyone else pretty much has a murder rate in line with Western Europe and usually lower levels of overall crime.

But what you said about the worst hot spots for the US is true - the US overall rate is around 6 per 100k (definitely second world - comparable to Albania), however the concentration is staggering. There was an article here not so long ago which listed the worst cities in the US by murder rate - I can't remember which city exactly topped the list, but what I do remember is that compared to Zagreb where I live and which has the worst rate in Croatia (overall stat for Croatia is around 1.8 - comparable to Canada) it had a staggering 15 times worse murder rate, which indicates the murders in the US are disproportionally concentrated. Those cities taken alone would probably be comparable to Baghdad or similar. Also, the regional differences are staggering - going by murder rate, Louisiana is a third world shithole (20+ rate), while the northern states bordering Canada have a comparable rate to Europe and Canada.

* Numbers from wiki but its well sourced and in line with expectations

Could it be socioeconomic differences and the US's lack of a European style social safety net?

[Edi]

Speaking as a layman, the thing that appears 'odd' to me about the various European police forces isn't that they're armed with submachine guns in airports, etc., it's that a lot of them are national police forces.

From an American perspective, a genuinely national police force as ubiquitous as the European ones appear to be on the news is 'odd' because the USA doesn't have a national police force that's nearly as visible to the average citizen.

This is perhaps a misconception. Most European countries have a division of local and national police in some respects.

In Finland, each city or municipality has its own police department, but all police departments are subject to the Ministry of the Interior's Police section. In addition, we have Keskusrikospoliisi (KRP, Central Criminal Police would be the word for word translation, though it's not good), which is a nationwide unit that handles wide-ranging investigations, investigates misconduct in local police departments and cooperates with foreign law enforcement services and similar things. Miconduct investigations are never internal to a department, they're always handled by a different department (e.g. from the next city over or the KRP).

The thing that makes it look like a nationwide, unified police force is that they all wear the exact same uniform regardless of locality.

In Italy, they have municipal police forces at the local level, while the Carabinieri are a more paramilitary organization from what I've seen of them, and the Carabinieri are a federal force with its own subdivisions. So for example Rome and Pesaro and other cities have their own local forces, but all bigger places also have a Carabinieri presence. I'm not certain of the exact division of labor between them beyond the biggest generalities.

[Vendetta]

Speaking as a layman, the thing that appears 'odd' to me about the various European police forces isn't that they're armed with submachine guns in airports, etc., it's that a lot of them are national police forces.

From an American perspective, a genuinely national police force as ubiquitous as the European ones appear to be on the news is 'odd' because the USA doesn't have a national police force that's nearly as visible to the average citizen.

This is perhaps a misconception. Most European countries have a division of local and national police in some respects.

It's not the case in Britain either, there are 30 or so seperate constabularies, the only national police forces are ones like the British Transport Police. However, the only jurisdictional lines are between the three seperate legal systems, and even then constables have some cross jurisdictional power.

It may be that the high degree of standardisation between forces causes this kind of impression (the most obvious external difference is the vehicle fleet, different constabularies have different high visibility markings).

Some European countries do have national police forces though. Ireland does.

[Samuel]

I seem to recall, and this could be total malarky but I'm going with my recollection, a comparative study to hwo gun violence is presented in US versus Japanese media which pointed to very different attitudes towards the consequences of said use. I truly wish there was more available in terms of studying why the US has such a disproportionate number of gun violence deaths compared against other industrialized nations (I know we've touched mostly on Germany in this thread but they are obviously not alone) but it is such a multi-variable problem that I wonder if anything CAN be done about it without a massive sort of social upheaval.

Well, obviously easier access to guns is part of it, but as for the study, are you sure you are remembering right? I remember hearing that Japan had more displays of guns in cartoons because they didn't have to worry about kids playing with them, while the coresponding scenes were censored in the US.

[CmdrWilkens]

Well, obviously easier access to guns is part of it, but as for the study, are you sure you are remembering right? I remember hearing that Japan had more displays of guns in cartoons because they didn't have to worry about kids playing with them, while the coresponding scenes were censored in the US.

The disparity wasn't in the number of scenes including guns, which I seem to recall indicated no paticular lean one direciton or the other, but rather the consequences of gun use. In other words the study indicated Japanese media often showing negative consequences towards the user even if they were the protagonist while US media tends to reward protagonist shooters.

[Thanas]

Well, I am not an expert in Japanese television, but I did see three japanese cop shows for a season each.

Every one of them showed negative consequences - the shooter being seen as a failure because he failed to protect the criminal's life. One of them even had the major character being ostracized (due to a number of other issues as well, though), while also portraying the main character as a sort of self-destructing mad dog due to shooting a murdered immediately without trying to calm him down. That drama was also one of the best I have seen, even though the ending made no sense and probably was a retcon ordered by the developers.