Gun brought to anti-HC mob.

[SirNitram]

Link

Southern Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords has a new loyal following — but not the one she probably hoped for when she ran for office in 2006.
Conservative activists, opposed to the Democrats’ health care proposals, are jumping at the chance to confront the second-term Democrat and vent their frustrations.
But for now Giffords is not interested in engaging with people her staff says are using “manipulation” and “racism” to spread their message.
“Yelling and screaming is counterproductive,” she told the Sierra Vista Herald at a Congress on Your Corner event last week. There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n’ greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says.
That has aides, who called police to the event, concerned for her safety.
“We have never felt the need before to notify law enforcement when we hold these events,” said spokesman C.J. Karamargin.
Such activists are showing-up at Democratic events coast to coast, including a recent one held by Northern Arizona congresswoman Ann Kirkpatrick.
But the leader of the Tucson movement, Trent Humphries, a former legislative candidate, says Giffords is lying. He says his followers have no intention of hurting her. And they’re not racists, he said.
“Nobody is threatening Gabby,” Humphries said. “But she does need to get in front of her constituents and answer to her constituents.”
Her staff says she’s done that.
Before this organized movement against Democrats started, Giffords held a health care town hall early this summer that drew more than 1,000 people. And just this month she held a tele-town hall, with 5,000 invited guests from her district on the line.
The more important point? What Giffords actually decides to do if there’s a vote on health care reform. Despite Humphries claims that Giffords supports the Democratic reforms, she’s stopped short of saying that much.
It’s that vote which could determine whether this frantic crowd — or angry health care reformers in her own party — are the ones following this Blue Dog around T-town.

I'd call bringing a gun and being part of groups who yell, scream, and occasionally break down into angry, seething mobs is threatening.

[Kodiak]

There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n’ greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says.

I'd call bringing a gun and being part of groups who yell, scream, and occasionally break down into angry, seething mobs is threatening.

If only we'd had some sort of warning that right-wing political groups posed a threat to America.....

And someone "dropped a gun"? As in, on the floor? We're going to start needing armed security for all congressional appointees before too long.

[The Romulan Republic]

There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n’ greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says.

I'd call bringing a gun and being part of groups who yell, scream, and occasionally break down into angry, seething mobs is threatening.

If only we'd had some sort of warning that right-wing political groups posed a threat to America.....

And someone "dropped a gun"? As in, on the floor? We're going to start needing armed security for all congressional appointees before too long.

Then we can watch as paying for that security is attacked as being a big government waste of taxpayer dollars.

[Tiriol]

It feels like the American society would be becoming dangerously polarized. What has happened to USA? People have asked that question a million times when it concerned the conduct of US armed forces in Iraq and elsewhere, but now the society itself seems to be hell-bent to poison itself. All the time when the attention was focused on the US military, it should have been on the society that produced the military.

This is disheartening, to say the least, and worrisome.

[Force Lord]

It feels like the American society would be becoming dangerously polarized. What has happened to USA? People have asked that question a million times when it concerned the conduct of US armed forces in Iraq and elsewhere, but now the society itself seems to be hell-bent to poison itself. All the time when the attention was focused on the US military, it should have been on the society that produced the military.

This is disheartening, to say the least, and worrisome.

Such polarization hasn't reached 1968 levels at least, let alone the years before the American Civil War. Still, things could easily get worse if the health-care debate is prolonged.

[Azazal]

I would like to hear more on this before coming to a conclusion.

Yes this very well could be a case of some total dumb as thinking he'll be the next great Gavrilo Princip, but could this also be a dumb ass with a ccw permit who did not properly secure his pistol in the holster?

We just have

There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n’ greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says.

, need to hear some more details.

From this,

“Yelling and screaming is counterproductive,” she told the Sierra Vista Herald at a Congress on Your Corner event last week.

, while not there my self, sounds like things where very heated to say the least. Were the people in the crowd bumping and jostling each other at all? If so and some one did not have the pistol secure, and I;m going by pistol as I am sure anything larger would have been seen right away, could have been bumped causing it to fall to the floor.

[Starglider]

A good fraction if not most hard-core conservatives think that every American should be carrying a gun at all times (or at least, all white 'god-fearing' males), so the mere presence of guns doesn't signify much. The US is probably the only first world nation where this could be true.

[Patrick Degan]

It feels like the American society would be becoming dangerously polarized. What has happened to USA?

Rush Limbaugh and Rupert Murdoch.

[Tanasinn]

The sooner and faster these right-wing troglodytes escalate, the sooner they can render themselves politically irrelevant by alienating even the most wishy-washy of centrists - and judging by their behavior since Bush II went to go be a moron somewhere else, they're just going to continue to get louder and rowdier. Better they have their national kick the dog moment now, before congressional elections, than later.

[CmdrWilkens]

There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n’ greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says.

I'd call bringing a gun and being part of groups who yell, scream, and occasionally break down into angry, seething mobs is threatening.

If only we'd had some sort of warning that right-wing political groups posed a threat to America.....

And someone "dropped a gun"? As in, on the floor? We're going to start needing armed security for all congressional appointees before too long.

Well its already available, see US Capitol Police. They just aren't always used but they are already available if members request them and the senior leadership travel with details all the time (one of my relatives has been on Dennis Hastert, Trent Lott, Barack Obama, and Harry Reid's details amongst others).

[The Original Nex]

It feels like the American society would be becoming dangerously polarized. What has happened to USA? People have asked that question a million times when it concerned the conduct of US armed forces in Iraq and elsewhere, but now the society itself seems to be hell-bent to poison itself. All the time when the attention was focused on the US military, it should have been on the society that produced the military.

This is disheartening, to say the least, and worrisome.

Such polarization hasn't reached 1968 levels at least, let alone the years before the American Civil War. Still, things could easily get worse if the health-care debate is prolonged.

This has nothing to do with the Health Care debate. Once that is over the populist right will get riled up over the next initiative. This has everything to do with the right-wing realizing that they aren't the top dogs anymore and how they're coming to terms with that. They don't know why they're screaming, they just know they're scared and angry.

[Count Chocula]

Well it is Arizona, an open carry and (IIRC) "shall-issue" CCW state. I do know the last time I was in Arizona, in Kingman, Mesa and Phoenix, my openly carried pistol drew no stares or comments (other than one 7-Eleven clerk asking me what kind of piece I had). They weren't in a bar or a Federal building, they were in a Safeway; someone didn't keep control of their weapon and didn't notice it. Giffords' aides may have overreacted, but I can't fault their action given that emotions are running high on the issue. If the gun's owner ever comes forward to reclaim his gun, he'll be one red-faced compadre.

Yes this very well could be a case of some total dumb as thinking he'll be the next great Gavrilo Princip, but could this also be a dumb ass with a ccw permit who did not properly secure his pistol in the holster?

Likening a gun in an open-carry state lost on the floor to the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand is a bit of a leap. I'll agree with you on interpretation #2.

[General Zod]

Well it is Arizona, an open carry and (IIRC) "shall-issue" CCW state. I do know the last time I was in Arizona, in Kingman, Mesa and Phoenix, my openly carried pistol drew no stares or comments (other than one 7-Eleven clerk asking me what kind of piece I had). They weren't in a bar or a Federal building, they were in a Safeway; someone didn't keep control of their weapon and didn't notice it. Giffords' aides may have overreacted, but I can't fault their action given that emotions are running high on the issue. If the gun's owner ever comes forward to reclaim his gun, he'll be one red-faced compadre.

Yes this very well could be a case of some total dumb as thinking he'll be the next great Gavrilo Princip, but could this also be a dumb ass with a ccw permit who did not properly secure his pistol in the holster?

Likening a gun in an open-carry state lost on the floor to the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand is a bit of a leap. I'll agree with you on interpretation #2.

What kind of idiot thinks it's a good idea to bring a weapon with them when they meet a congressman whether they have a CCW or not? Don't most states have laws against having weapons on Federal property regardless of CCW permits?

[Count Chocula]

^ It was at a Safeway grocery store, Zod. Plus, Arizona's attitudes about CCW and open carry are a lot more casual and matter-of-fact than most states on the East Coast. Besides, people with CCWs tend to carry them habitually, unless they're going somewhere (like a bar) that's prohibited by their state's laws.

[SirNitram]

^ It was at a Safeway grocery store, Zod. Plus, Arizona's attitudes about CCW and open carry are a lot more casual and matter-of-fact than most states on the East Coast. Besides, people with CCWs tend to carry them habitually, unless they're going somewhere (like a bar) that's prohibited by their state's laws.

Yea. It's entirely innoculous to bring your gun to an event that's been known to have violence in it, where people are being encouraged to bring guns, and of course, your anecdotal experience with CCW permit-holders is ironclad proof.

You have to realize this is ridiculous. You have to.

[Glocksman]

^ It was at a Safeway grocery store, Zod. Plus, Arizona's attitudes about CCW and open carry are a lot more casual and matter-of-fact than most states on the East Coast. Besides, people with CCWs tend to carry them habitually, unless they're going somewhere (like a bar) that's prohibited by their state's laws.

Yea. It's entirely innoculous to bring your gun to an event that's been known to have violence in it, where people are being encouraged to bring guns, and of course, your anecdotal experience with CCW permit-holders is ironclad proof.

You have to realize this is ridiculous. You have to.

I'll freely confess that after reading about the violence at other rallies, I considered legally carrying a gun when I attended a pro healthcare rally Saturday afternoon.

In the end I did not and there was no violence.


As for the guy in Arizona being the next Princip or just some careless schlub, I'd suggest that if he comes forward to claim the lost gun he was merely careless.

If he doesn't (guns are fairly expensive) then the owner might have something to hide and be worthy of further investigation though he could have some real brass ones and come forward despite any bad intent.

That said, given the fact that passions are indeed running high and some nut might lose it, I totally understand the Congressperson's concerns and personally I'd be creeped out if I were her.

To my mind, if he merely 'lost' the gun, his permit should be suspended because he failed to demonstrate adequate care in public and only renewed after proof of completion of a certified 'gun safety' course.

I don't know of very many serious gun people (kooks excepted) who'd disagree with a suspension of his permit under the circumstances.
Though if it comes out during the investigation that he's issued threats or otherwise could be proven to a jury to have attended the event with bad intent, prosecution is in order.

[SirNitram]

Link

Officer Marcus Gonzalez, who is the the spokesman for the police in Douglas, Arizona, has now filled me in on exactly what happened at that meet-and-greet last week by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) -- the one where somebody dropped a gun.

"Apparently, there was no police report taken, the reason being that it was an accidental drop of a gun," Gonzalez explained to me. "Apparently, a male gentleman that went to the meeting had a gun holstered on his side. And when he sat down, it fell out of his holster."

Police were not called to the scene, but were already there to maintain public order and provide security for the Congresswoman. They immediately looked into this, and it turned out the man owned the gun and was legally carrying it -- like our friend in New Hampshire, he was legally carrying the weapon out in the open, and did not need any concealed-carry permit.

"We're not really conducting an investigation on this, because there's not really an investigation to conduct," said Gonzalez.

I made sure to ask Officer Gonzalez whether the gun went off when it fell. It did not.

All well then.. But is it normal for a holster to let a gun drop out as you sit? Or is this, as Glocksman said, a moment of dumb-owner?

[General Zod]

Link

Officer Marcus Gonzalez, who is the the spokesman for the police in Douglas, Arizona, has now filled me in on exactly what happened at that meet-and-greet last week by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) -- the one where somebody dropped a gun.

"Apparently, there was no police report taken, the reason being that it was an accidental drop of a gun," Gonzalez explained to me. "Apparently, a male gentleman that went to the meeting had a gun holstered on his side. And when he sat down, it fell out of his holster."

Police were not called to the scene, but were already there to maintain public order and provide security for the Congresswoman. They immediately looked into this, and it turned out the man owned the gun and was legally carrying it -- like our friend in New Hampshire, he was legally carrying the weapon out in the open, and did not need any concealed-carry permit.

"We're not really conducting an investigation on this, because there's not really an investigation to conduct," said Gonzalez.

I made sure to ask Officer Gonzalez whether the gun went off when it fell. It did not.

All well then.. But is it normal for a holster to let a gun drop out as you sit? Or is this, as Glocksman said, a moment of dumb-owner?

I'm pretty sure most holsters have a strap to lock the gun in place. Good thing there wasn't any accidental discharge when it fell?

[loomer]

There's a possibility it was an engineered accident - an innocuous action designed to serve as an indirect threat or warning - and even if it wasn't, that's how it's played out.

[Julhelm]

Good thing there wasn't any accidental discharge when it fell?

I can't imagine someone walking around even in an open-carry state with the gun cocked all the time.

[Glocksman]

Good thing there wasn't any accidental discharge when it fell?

I can't imagine someone walking around even in an open-carry state with the gun cocked all the time.

'Cocked and locked' 1911 or even a Glock with a chambered round*.
Happens all of the time, though due to the differences in design between automatics and revolvers only a true idiot worthy of a Darwin award would walk around with a cocked revolver in a holster.

That said, accidental drops can and do happen though as loomer said, it could have been a staged 'accident' meant to serve as a deniable threat to the Congresswoman.
The cynical part of me thinks the huge majority of the assholes who'd do it aren't that subtle.
Their idea of 'discreet' would be to fire off a dozen rounds outside her home and claim they were 'hunting' if caught.

*It's not likely, but the gun could have cocked upon hitting the ground.
My best friend used to carry a Ruger P90 .45 DA automatic.
One time after we arrived at his house he drew the 'hammer down' Ruger in order to put it in his gun safe.
He dropped it.
When he picked it up, we both noticed that the gun had somehow cocked itself.
That incident converted him from a Ruger .45 auto owner into a .357 DAO revolver carrier.

[Knife]

It feels like the American society would be becoming dangerously polarized. What has happened to USA? People have asked that question a million times when it concerned the conduct of US armed forces in Iraq and elsewhere, but now the society itself seems to be hell-bent to poison itself. All the time when the attention was focused on the US military, it should have been on the society that produced the military.

This is disheartening, to say the least, and worrisome.

Well, IMO, the US goes through cycles of this shit. We were founded with this very wide division; federalists/anitfederalists being the basic problem. Every so often the division comes to a head and usually the anti federalists get bitch slapped and the cycle starts over. Hell, Thomas Jefferson was king shit of the anti federalists and his second term is mired in him using more and more federal power that he opposed so much. The middle half of the 19th century was dominated with sectional strife that was mostly federalists and those who wanted state nullification; thank god they lost. It really hasn't ever stopped since, this is just the latest round. Racism seems to be driving a lot of it, but it is not like that is new either.

So, yeah, every couple decades, the 'we want small fiefdoms of the white, christian, male power structure' nuts boil up and explode all over the scene. To date, they mostly get beaten down by those who want a strong unified nation, yet they then go underground and simmer for a couple decades more. It'll be interesting to see how this round turns out.