FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
The Spartan
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4406
Joined: 2005-03-12 05:56pm
Location: Houston

FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by The Spartan »

AP by means of Yahoo
FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives
By MIKE BAKER, Associated Press Writer Mike Baker, Associated Press Writer Mon Oct 12, 7:57 pm ET

RALEIGH, N.C. – In its search for fugitives, the FBI has begun using facial-recognition technology on millions of motorists, comparing driver's license photos with pictures of convicts in a high-tech analysis of chin widths and nose sizes.

The project in North Carolina has already helped nab at least one suspect. Agents are eager to look for more criminals and possibly to expand the effort nationwide. But privacy advocates worry that the method allows authorities to track people who have done nothing wrong.

"Everybody's participating, essentially, in a virtual lineup by getting a driver's license," said Christopher Calabrese, an attorney who focuses on privacy issues at the American Civil Liberties Union.

Earlier this year, investigators learned that a double-homicide suspect named Rodolfo Corrales had moved to North Carolina. The FBI took a 1991 booking photo from California and compared it with 30 million photos stored by the motor vehicle agency in Raleigh.

In seconds, the search returned dozens of drivers who resembled Corrales, and an FBI analyst reviewed a gallery of images before zeroing in on a man who called himself Jose Solis.

A week later, after corroborating Corrales' identity, agents arrested him in High Point, southwest of Greensboro, where they believe he had built a new life under the assumed name. Corrales is scheduled for a preliminary hearing in Los Angeles later this month.

"Running facial recognition is not very labor-intensive at all," analyst Michael Garcia said. "If I can probe a hundred fugitives and get one or two, that's a home run."

Facial-recognition software is not entirely new, but the North Carolina project is the first major step for the FBI as it considers expanding use of the technology to find fugitives nationwide.

So-called biometric information that is unique to each person also includes fingerprints and DNA. More distant possibilities include iris patterns in the eye, voices, scent and even a person's gait.

FBI officials have organized a panel of authorities to study how best to increase use of the software. It will take at least a year to establish standards for license photos, and there's no timetable to roll out the program nationally.

Calabrese said Americans should be concerned about how their driver's licenses are being used.

Licenses "started as a permission to drive," he said. "Now you need them to open a bank account. You need them to be identified everywhere. And suddenly they're becoming the de facto law enforcement database."

State and federal laws allow driver's license agencies to release records for law enforcement, and local agencies have access to North Carolina's database, too. But the FBI is not authorized to collect and store the photos. That means the facial-recognition analysis must be done at the North Carolina Division of Motor Vehicles.

"Unless the person's a criminal, we would not have a need to have that information in the system," said Kim Del Greco, who oversees the FBI's biometrics division. "I think that would be a privacy concern. We're staying away from that."

Dan Roberts, assistant director of the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division, added: "We're not interested in housing a bunch of photos of people who have done absolutely nothing wrong."

Gone are the days when states made drivers' licenses by snapping Polaroid photos and laminating them onto cards without recording copies.

Now states have quality photo machines and rules that prohibit drivers from smiling during the snapshot to improve the accuracy of computer comparisons.

North Carolina's lab scans an image and, within 10 seconds, compares the likeness with other photos based on an algorithm of factors such as the width of a chin or the structure of cheekbones. The search returns several hundred photos ranked by the similarities.

"We'll get some close hits, and we'll get some hits that are right on," said Stephen Lamm, who oversees the DMV lab.

The technology allowed the DMV to quickly highlight 28 different photos of one man who was apparently using many identities. It also identified one person who, as part of a sex change, came in with plucked eyebrows, long flowing hair and a new name — but the same radiant smile.

The system is not always right. Investigators used one DMV photo of an Associated Press reporter to search for a second DMV photo, but the system first returned dozens of other people, including a North Carolina terrorism suspect who had some similar facial features.

The images from the reporter and terror suspect scored a likeness of 72 percent, below the mid-80s that officials consider a solid hit.

Facial-recognition experts believe the technology has improved drastically since 2002, when extremely high failure rates led authorities to scrap a program planned for the entrances to the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City.

Lamm said investigators reviewing the galleries can almost always find the right photo, using a combination of the computer and the naked eye.

Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, questioned whether the facial-recognition systems that were pushed after the Sept. 11 attacks are accurate or even worthwhile.

"We don't have good photos of terrorists," Rotenberg said. "Most of the facial-recognition systems today are built on state DMV records because that's where the good photos are. It's not where the terrorists are."
If they can keep the false positives down, this seems like a useful program. I'm skeptical that you can call your driver's license photo strictly private any more than you can say the same about your face, this isn't a conversation that they're listening in on where intimate details of your life are being "shared". Just let the software run its course and you come up with a couple names that would have taken however many man-hours otherwise. A few follow-ups to make sure it's not a false positive and bam, fugitive becomes suspect in a trial.

There's only two things that bother me off the top of my head. The possibility, however low, that an investigator will continue to push that what is actually a false positive is the right person and the living hell that could become for them. The other is alluded to in the article; a transgendered person. They mention above finding someone with a new name but different sex, but don't mention whether or not the individual in question had gone through the legal process of a name change. Couple that with the fucked up laws that surround such situations and there's a problem.
The Gentleman from Texas abstains. Discourteously.
Image
PRFYNAFBTFC-Vice Admiral: MFS Masturbating Walrus :: Omine subtilite Odobenus rosmarus masturbari
Soy un perdedor.
"WHO POOPED IN A NORMAL ROOM?!"-Commander William T. Riker
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Zixinus »

Sounds like they were able to perfect the technology.
But privacy advocates worry that the method allows authorities to track people who have done nothing wrong.
Yes, I'm sure that every FBI agent out there is just bored with the lack of murders, theft, embezzlement and other crimes to chase after.
Calabrese said Americans should be concerned about how their driver's licenses are being used.

Licenses "started as a permission to drive," he said. "Now you need them to open a bank account. You need them to be identified everywhere. And suddenly they're becoming the de facto law enforcement database."
Sounds like to me that you have a problem of shitty national ID cards. Is there no ID card standard in the USA or what?
"Unless the person's a criminal, we would not have a need to have that information in the system," said Kim Del Greco, who oversees the FBI's biometrics division. "I think that would be a privacy concern. We're staying away from that."

Dan Roberts, assistant director of the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division, added: "We're not interested in housing a bunch of photos of people who have done absolutely nothing wrong."
What, the FBI disinterested in people that are not criminals? It almost sounds like they're not a Gestapo like organization, prosecuting independent businessman who just wish to enjoy life and make a living, like those drug dealer cartels?
There's only two things that bother me off the top of my head. The possibility, however low, that an investigator will continue to push that what is actually a false positive is the right person and the living hell that could become for them. The other is alluded to in the article; a transgendered person. They mention above finding someone with a new name but different sex, but don't mention whether or not the individual in question had gone through the legal process of a name change. Couple that with the fucked up laws that surround such situations and there's a problem.
Yes, I was wondering that myself. Hopefully, agents will be told to confirm identity discreetly before they call in a raiding team.

The real indicator of this, I think, is how much power does an FBI agent have over you if you are a positive match. Hopefully little. If they can bring you in just based on a positive of this software, then you have a real problem.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22466
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Mr Bean »

Zixinus wrote:
Sounds like to me that you have a problem of shitty national ID cards. Is there no ID card standard in the USA or what?
No there is no ID card standard in the US, anytime a National ID card is purposed it gets immediate bipartisan support to kill it. The right wing base is rabid at the very idea of "papers" and think ID cards are step 1 on the road to Communism so they want it die and die quickly. Meanwhile the left wing base, the hippies and the former hippies don't like it either. Nor do the social Libertarians. Anytime National ID card rules or Xenu forbid a mandatory national ID card itself gets purposed it's both extreme's VS's the moderates and the Senators who quickly kill the legislation.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Zixinus »

Mr Bean wrote:No there is no ID card standard in the US, anytime a National ID card is purposed it gets immediate bipartisan support to kill it. The right wing base is rabid at the very idea of "papers" and think ID cards are step 1 on the road to Communism so they want it die and die quickly. Meanwhile the left wing base, the hippies and the former hippies don't like it either. Nor do the social Libertarians. Anytime National ID card rules or Xenu forbid a mandatory national ID card itself gets purposed it's both extreme's VS's the moderates and the Senators who quickly kill the legislation.
Thought so that this might be the case. I presume no one wants to hear even once that there is effectively an ID card system in the form of driver's license.

Let me quote this again:
Licenses "started as a permission to drive," he said. "Now you need them to open a bank account. You need them to be identified everywhere. And suddenly they're becoming the de facto law enforcement database."
Apparently, people don't realise that identity verification is part of the 20th century.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by The Romulan Republic »

You need a license to open a bank account? Since when? I had no problem opening a bank account here in Canada, and I don't have a license.
User avatar
White Haven
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6360
Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Location: The North Remembers, When It Can Be Bothered

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by White Haven »

You'd be amazed how much a discussion of US law and commercial practices isn't relevant to Canadian banking.
Image
Image
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.

Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'

Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)Image
User avatar
Stofsk
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12925
Joined: 2003-11-10 12:36am

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Stofsk »

The Romulan Republic wrote:You need a license to open a bank account? Since when?
You need some form of identification and something which gives the bank your current address. A licence doubles as a form of ID, and it's usually the most convenient because you should always carry it with you.
Image
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Broomstick »

Zixinus wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:No there is no ID card standard in the US, anytime a National ID card is purposed it gets immediate bipartisan support to kill it. The right wing base is rabid at the very idea of "papers" and think ID cards are step 1 on the road to Communism so they want it die and die quickly. Meanwhile the left wing base, the hippies and the former hippies don't like it either. Nor do the social Libertarians. Anytime National ID card rules or Xenu forbid a mandatory national ID card itself gets purposed it's both extreme's VS's the moderates and the Senators who quickly kill the legislation.
Thought so that this might be the case. I presume no one wants to hear even once that there is effectively an ID card system in the form of driver's license.
Correct.

Shhh! Please don't tell anyone!

Your face, like your fingerprints, identify you. They are private in that they are part of you, but not private in that avoiding leaving fingerprint or not showing your face is impractical in our society.

Provided that the possibility of false positives is kept in mind (and it sounds like it is) this would be more more a problem that what is currently found in police line ups we've had for decades. I am presuming that a positive hit on a face would be followed up with things like confirmation of fingerprints.

Law enforcement has been using their own eyeballs since forever to spot people, including those in disguise, and looking at all sorts of pictures has nabbed fugitives in the past - that's why wanted posters have pictures on them, duh! The only difference here is that the comparison process has been at least partially automated.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Simon_Jester »

That's only half of the major change, I think. The other big difference is that the process is now comprehensive; if I can use driver's license photo files for my recognition software, I can theoretically look at almost everyone in the population at once in a matter of hours to find my suspect. And that is new. It's not just that the process is automated, it's that they can look at anyone and everyone whenever they like.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's more than just automation of a process that was already being used.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Last I checked the US government was still banned from collecting biometrics data on US citizens, and that’s exactly what this is program amounts too.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Questor
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1601
Joined: 2002-07-17 06:27pm
Location: Landover

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Questor »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Last I checked the US government was still banned from collecting biometrics data on US citizens, and that’s exactly what this is program amounts too.
Actually, I suspect a court would rule that this is a case of "state's-rights" biting people in the ass.

The US government is not collecting my biometrics data, the State of California is. Its just that the State of California is allowing the US government to use its data.

This type of thing has never come up before.
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Edi »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Last I checked the US government was still banned from collecting biometrics data on US citizens, and that’s exactly what this is program amounts too.
Facial photos have never been considered biometric data to my knowledge, else passports with photographs would be illegal under those same rules. Conventionally biometrics has been used to refer to fingerprints, DNA samples, eye-scans etc.

In addition to that, Jason is quite correct in his post. If state agencies do the collecting and cooperate with the FBI, there is no problem with that. If several different states happen to standardize the system used in this, well...
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Edi wrote: Facial photos have never been considered biometric data to my knowledge, else passports with photographs would be illegal under those same rules. Conventionally biometrics has been used to refer to fingerprints, DNA samples, eye-scans etc.
The entire point of this is all is not that the FBI is looking at photos but that it is scanning those photos with a computer program to measure facial dimension is virtually the definition of collecting biometrics. Trying to claim this is not biometrics is completely absurd when its being overseen by FBI biometrics division as stated clearly in the article. I don't know why I have to explain this, its not a question. The only question is if the US law on the matter was legally changed or is just being trampled over.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Broomstick »

Edi wrote:If several different states happen to standardize the system used in this, well...
Since 9/11 the Feds have been exerting pressure on all the states to standardize driver's licenses and there is a law to do so by a certain date although I can't recall all the details at the moment (yay for posting just after I wake up). There's a definite push for more Federal use of the states' driver information.
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Edi wrote: Facial photos have never been considered biometric data to my knowledge, else passports with photographs would be illegal under those same rules. Conventionally biometrics has been used to refer to fingerprints, DNA samples, eye-scans etc.
The entire point of this is all is not that the FBI is looking at photos but that it is scanning those photos with a computer program to measure facial dimension is virtually the definition of collecting biometrics. Trying to claim this is not biometrics is completely absurd when its being overseen by FBI biometrics division as stated clearly in the article. I don't know why I have to explain this, its not a question. The only question is if the US law on the matter was legally changed or is just being trampled over.
While I understand how this use of photos can be considered "biometric", the use of photos for identification purposes goes back so far I think the horse is already out of the barn on this one.

Fact is, the Feds already legally own biometric data. How is this facial scanning different from using automated scanning of the FBI's fingerprint database? Are you opposed to the FBI using fingerprints to help solve crime?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Zixinus »

The entire point of this is all is not that the FBI is looking at photos but that it is scanning those photos with a computer program to measure facial dimension is virtually the definition of collecting biometrics. Trying to claim this is not biometrics is completely absurd when its being overseen by FBI biometrics division as stated clearly in the article. I don't know why I have to explain this.
Even if they only collect such biometric data on people whom are criminals, or at least, under investigation?

The biometric division specified that they're not converting the entire driver's license base. They only convert photos of people that are suspects, that is, people whom the FBI requested files on.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Edi »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Edi wrote: Facial photos have never been considered biometric data to my knowledge, else passports with photographs would be illegal under those same rules. Conventionally biometrics has been used to refer to fingerprints, DNA samples, eye-scans etc.
The entire point of this is all is not that the FBI is looking at photos but that it is scanning those photos with a computer program to measure facial dimension is virtually the definition of collecting biometrics. Trying to claim this is not biometrics is completely absurd when its being overseen by FBI biometrics division as stated clearly in the article. I don't know why I have to explain this, its not a question. The only question is if the US law on the matter was legally changed or is just being trampled over.
Even if this is granted despite the precedent of photos having been used for identification since they were invented, so what? I actually couldn't give a toss. Most of the objections to this thing that can be seen or even envisioned amount to little more than whining.
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
The Spartan
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4406
Joined: 2005-03-12 05:56pm
Location: Houston

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by The Spartan »

I'm betting that the legal argument* being made is something along the lines that they're not collecting biometric data on citizens. They're collecting biometric data on fugitives and then comparing that particular data to the data of citizens without actually saving and cataloging the data of the citizens.

In other words, it's an electronic version of walking around with a picture and holding it up for comparison of everyone walking past.

*(Obviously, I'm presuming that the law Sea Skimmer mentioned is in force.)
The Gentleman from Texas abstains. Discourteously.
Image
PRFYNAFBTFC-Vice Admiral: MFS Masturbating Walrus :: Omine subtilite Odobenus rosmarus masturbari
Soy un perdedor.
"WHO POOPED IN A NORMAL ROOM?!"-Commander William T. Riker
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by The Romulan Republic »

White Haven wrote:You'd be amazed how much a discussion of US law and commercial practices isn't relevant to Canadian banking.
Yeah, I can actually figure out that the US system is probably a bit different, but I'm still suprised at the suggestion that you would have to have a driver's liscense to get a bank account as their are doubtlessly a lot of people (like myself), who do not have a liscense but are adults who would have need of a bank account. In other words, a system that required a driver's liscense specifically would screw a lot of people over.

Until proven otherwise, I'll assume "requires a driver's liscense" was just exaggeration/oversimplification.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: FBI delves into DMV photos in search for fugitives

Post by Broomstick »

Invariably, when a driver's license is a required form of ID if you look closer and read the fine print you will see "or official state ID card" which looks quite a bit like a driver's license and is issued by the DMV but does not grant driving privileges. Every says "Driver's license" because in the US it really is a nearly ubiquitous form of ID, but in reality the state-issued ID card is the equivalent for ID purposes and is accepted by banks.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Post Reply