US Navy to Allow Women Submariners

[Broomstick]

To put it bluntly, it is not the military's fault that you are a dumbshit who didn't understand what you've been told during the recruitment process.

Of course, enlisting 18 year olds doesn't help that - maybe we should make the sign up age 21? Naw, would probably still results in a lot of dumbshits.

Personally, I've long since concluded the average human being is an idiot, but that's just me.

By the way, I've never heard of guys chopping off body parts to get out of deployment, doing drugs on leave so you can get nailed by the post-leave drugtest seems to be the preferred route.

Well, yes, drugs are easier, less painful, and less mutilating. On the other hand, I have heard of self-mutilation. It's just not common.

My father-in-law was a Marine drill sergeant - a "gunny" if you will - who in his time had to deal with 1 suicide via hand grenade that almost took a few other people with him along with assorted suspicious injuries scattered over the years. And that was just in boot camp. Part of his job was to weed those guys out but hey, no system is perfect. I'd ask him for more details but he has been dead for a couple decades so that would be a trifle difficult.

So basically, by letting women serve on submarines (even without mandatory birth control) the navy has changed the status quo exactly zero.

-a minority of sailors will still weasel out of deployments by rendering themselves unable to perform their duties
-the ability to prosecute people for doing so will remain little deterrent to them.

So.... it's a problem the military has to deal with on an on-going basis. This is different from a myriad of other problems.... how? A minority of sailors become ill or are injured in actual accidents. People die out on patrol, which is also inconvient and disruptive to the mission. Did anyone say running the navy was easy?

So, why do we need mandatory birth control?

Why do we need vaccinations? Why do we insist people bathe and brush their teeth?

Every sailor already has the means to render themselves unfit for duty through self-harm, what they lack is the motivation to do so. Even if you put every female submariner on birth control and they were determined to be removed from deployment they could just as easily shoot themselves in the foot, or find a way to stop taking the birth control without detection and become pregnant anyway.

Or just fucking hang themselves, which I'm sure happens too, on occassion. Frankly, anyone determined enough to end her birth control by digging an implant out of the flesh of her arm on her own is probably not going to be an effective sailor anyhow. It's a little more difficult than delibrately not swallowing a pill every day.

(1)It doesn't change the status quo. If a woman gets knocked off and has to be flown off, it's much harder for that to happen on a sub than on a surface ship. A Boomer(sorry.....Ballistic missile submarine) shouldn't have to break a patrol to get a preggo off. It's expensive and potentially very dangerous to nuclear weapons security. Mind you, if a Boomer has a woman who is preggo and doesn't break patrol, then the argument could be made that the USN is knowingly putting children in harm's way.

You still have not explained why a woman has to be taken off on THREE MONTH patrol where, at the end, she can't be more than 12-13 weeks pregnant. In what way is a woman in the first trimester so incapacitated that she can't function in her job? You still haven't explained that to us civilians, some of whom (myself at least) would really like to know if there is a factual answer rather than a squick-factor at work.

(2)Usually it's easier and much more fun, for what I hope are obvious reasons, for a female to get out of deployment by means of getting knocked up. Kinda hard to get access to drugs or alcohol while on deployment. In addition, no CO is going to give a pregnant sailor a Bad Conduct Discharge(the kind where you'd have trouble getting a job at McDonalds after the service), while doing drugs is a surefire way of getting a BCD.

Actually... I have a neice who was 5 months along when given her BCD. Of course, she was really working at getting out, she wasn't going about it half-assed at all, and wasn't relying on just being pregnant. Then again, it was the army, maybe the army isn't as slack on discipline as the navy....?

(No, really - I expect the navy is just as hard-assed as any other branch. The point is, I have evidence to counter your assertion that that would "never" happen."

(3)Like I said earlier, you would have to prove that the female sailor intentionally knocked herself up to get out of deployment(as opposed to being a stupid 19 year old). Since this is a very, very, very hard thing to do it limits the punitive options to the command. Seriously, how would you prove it?

Well, if she's using implanted birth control the only way to interfere with it is pretty much to dig it out of her arm. That is going to leave an awful mess. Here is what a birth control implant looks like from the outside:



Yeah, removing that is going to take some determination. Then there is depo-provera which is injected. How the hell do you remove an injected substance? Sure it has to be repeated every three months - oh, wait, that's the length of the patrol isn't it? In any case, you don't need a doctor to learn how to inject something, I'm sure this can be handled by whatever medical staff on board, even if they're only regular sailors trained in advanced first aid. It just has to go into a muscle, no need to hunt for a blood vessel.

So... either the implant is still there, or she's been getting her regular shots. There was that too difficult? And if she does get pregnant while on either of those two forms of birth control then, pretty darn likely, it really IS an accidental failure and she's off the hook punishment wise. You might still have to remove her from an extended patrol, but what, that never happens to men for any reason, that something happens that's not their fault that interferes with their ability to perform their duties?

Oh, as a male junior enlisted person you can and will get in trouble if you knock up a female on your ship, even if you are the same paygrade and not in the same division. The problem is:

(1)Deny deny deny. The male sailor might deny it(what, males can't be douchbags too?).

Two words: "DNA testing". Even if the woman opts for an abortion this can still be performed. If the military is serious about punshing both parties this can and should be done.

(2)If the female is intentionally trying to get pregnant, she may have slept with more than one sailor. Then what?

DNA testing.

Unfair, of course, if a number of men had unprotected sex with her and only one got "caught", but it might also be an incentive for the MEN to take responsibility for birth control if the odds of them being found out go up.

(3)The female might not tell who the father is.

DNA testing. This also solves the problem of "the woman might not know who the father is".

[eion]

To put it bluntly, it is not the military's fault that you are a dumbshit who didn't understand what you've been told during the recruitment process.

Of course, enlisting 18 year olds doesn't help that - maybe we should make the sign up age 21? Naw, would probably still results in a lot of dumbshits.

Personally, I've long since concluded the average human being is an idiot, but that's just me.

I think if we had a compulsory national service program (wouldn't even have to be military in nature) for everyone when they turn 18 we'd weed out a lot of people from the military who aren't able to hack a deployment.

My father-in-law was a Marine drill instructor- a "hat" if you will

Fixed that for you. The Army has Drill Sergeants, and "gunny" is the nickname for a gunnery sergeant, which is a rank as opposed to a position like drill instructor.

- who in his time had to deal with 1 suicide via hand grenade that almost took a few other people with him along with assorted suspicious injuries scattered over the years. And that was just in boot camp. Part of his job was to weed those guys out but hey, no system is perfect. I'd ask him for more details but he has been dead for a couple decades so that would be a trifle difficult.

I don't know of any more vital military job (in terms of how many lives it affects) than that of drill instructors.

So.... it's a problem the military has to deal with on an on-going basis. This is different from a myriad of other problems.... how? A minority of sailors become ill or are injured in actual accidents. People die out on patrol, which is also inconvient and disruptive to the mission. Did anyone say running the navy was easy?

If you'd read the entire thread you'd find I conceded

So, why do we need mandatory birth control?

Why do we need vaccinations?

If you'd read all my posts, you'd see that's exactly the analogy I used in my DA argument which convinced me. My issue was not with preventing pregnancies while deployed, which I think is vital and should be treated as seriously as shooting yourself in the foot on purpose, but that enacting a policy of mandatory birth control for only women is a discriminatory practice. However, the discrimination is justified if one treats risk of pregnancy in the same way risk of malaria is treated. Not all service-members take quinine tablets, but any service-member deploying to a malaria infested area does or they are not allowed to do so.

((1)It doesn't change the status quo. If a woman gets knocked off and has to be flown off, it's much harder for that to happen on a sub than on a surface ship. A Boomer(sorry.....Ballistic missile submarine) shouldn't have to break a patrol to get a preggo off. It's expensive and potentially very dangerous to nuclear weapons security. Mind you, if a Boomer has a woman who is preggo and doesn't break patrol, then the argument could be made that the USN is knowingly putting children in harm's way.

You still have not explained why a woman has to be taken off on THREE MONTH patrol where, at the end, she can't be more than 12-13 weeks pregnant. In what way is a woman in the first trimester so incapacitated that she can't function in her job? You still haven't explained that to us civilians, some of whom (myself at least) would really like to know if there is a factual answer rather than a squick-factor at work.

There are any number of medical problems that occur during the first trimester that require the intervention of a doctor more skilled and specialized than is available on board a nuclear submarine: Ectopic pregnancy just off the top of my head. If such conditions are preventable through a simple implant or daily regimen than the benefit outweighs the risks and damage to civil liberties.

I believe you and Lonestar agree that women are able to serve aboard submarines. He merely thought mandatory birth control was a prudent measure, as do you form what I understand. So, why are you fighting?

[Thanas]

I know Germany has women on their subs and no one complains about them, but then the Germans are more grounded in reality than a lot of Americans. They know that sex will occur so they provide for protection and Germans also have no problems with the human body unlike so many prudish Americans.

Have you ever been in a German sub? I have. They are tiny, with a very small crew and very small quarters. Having sex there without anybody noticing is close to impossible. Germany also sends its subs on far shorter deployments, so the situations are not comparable.

[Broomstick]

To put it bluntly, it is not the military's fault that you are a dumbshit who didn't understand what you've been told during the recruitment process.

Of course, enlisting 18 year olds doesn't help that - maybe we should make the sign up age 21? Naw, would probably still results in a lot of dumbshits.

Personally, I've long since concluded the average human being is an idiot, but that's just me.

I think if we had a compulsory national service program (wouldn't even have to be military in nature) for everyone when they turn 18 we'd weed out a lot of people from the military who aren't able to hack a deployment.

Then we'd have the dipshits in civilian "national service" of some sort. Frankly, I don't know what to do with dipshits - they make poor pothole filler, for example. National service doesn't benefit from idiots in the ranks, either.

Well, compulsory sign-up for service - if you can't hack either military or civilian service well, we'll let you go, but you be at the back of the line for everything the rest of your life, maybe? I don't know, and that would be wandering a bit off topic.

My father-in-law was a Marine drill instructor- a "hat" if you will

Fixed that for you. The Army has Drill Sergeants, and "gunny" is the nickname for a gunnery sergeant, which is a rank as opposed to a position like drill instructor.

He also held the position "gunnery sergeant" (asked the Other Half). He was career military, after all, not sure if he held the rank and position concurrently or not, but he was both. Any confusion about that is probably wholly from me and my inexperience with being a Marine.

So, why do we need mandatory birth control?

Why do we need vaccinations?

If you'd read all my posts, you'd see that's exactly the analogy I used in my DA argument which convinced me. My issue was not with preventing pregnancies while deployed, which I think is vital and should be treated as seriously as shooting yourself in the foot on purpose, but that enacting a policy of mandatory birth control for only women is a discriminatory practice. However, the discrimination is justified if one treats risk of pregnancy in the same way risk of malaria is treated. Not all service-members take quinine tablets, but any service-member deploying to a malaria infested area does or they are not allowed to do so.

Right. Women have the mandatory birth control because they're the ones that get pregnant. It's not "fair" in one sense, but it is biological reality.

You still have not explained why a woman has to be taken off on THREE MONTH patrol where, at the end, she can't be more than 12-13 weeks pregnant. In what way is a woman in the first trimester so incapacitated that she can't function in her job? You still haven't explained that to us civilians, some of whom (myself at least) would really like to know if there is a factual answer rather than a squick-factor at work.

There are any number of medical problems that occur during the first trimester that require the intervention of a doctor more skilled and specialized than is available on board a nuclear submarine: Ectopic pregnancy just off the top of my head. If such conditions are preventable through a simple implant or daily regimen than the benefit outweighs the risks and damage to civil liberties.

Ectopic pregnancies are rare - by that argument any man who serves aboard a submarine should prophylactically have his appendix removed "just in case" it goes septic on him. No one is disputing that someone with a medical emergency should be removed (if possible - I recognize that sometimes it is NOT possible, and that is a risk and a danger on any deployment for anyone), what I'm saying is that only women are singled out as being excluded for a rare, hypothetical emergency. Women can miscarry and hemorrhage to death, too - but not just from pregnancy. For that matter, men can have sudden heart failure or brain aneurysms. If there is reason to believe someone is at high risk of a medical problem they'd probably be excluded from military service anyway. The women who can meet military physical standards are going to be low risk by reason of being young, fit, and healthy.

While some here are arguing that compulsory birth control somehow violates civil liberties I'd argue that denying a woman a job simply because she MIGHT get pregnant, and after that MIGHT have a complication is a far more grave violation of her civil rights. Imagine if someone argued that men should never be permitted to raise children as a single parent because they might get prostate cancer. (Actually, over a normal lifespan, men are MUCH more likely to have prostate cancer at some point that a woman is to have a life-threatening pregnancy complication.)

I believe you and Lonestar agree that women are able to serve aboard submarines. He merely thought mandatory birth control was a prudent measure, as do you form what I understand. So, why are you fighting?

Grumpy mood last week, possibly. But I just find it totally bizarre and whacked that requiring birth control for a valid reason for a job position that is entirely voluntary is somehow a hideous breach of civil rights. That's just... bizarre. Particularly since so many women in the US want reliable birth control but have trouble obtaining it.

[eion]

Then we'd have the dipshits in civilian "national service" of some sort. Frankly, I don't know what to do with dipshits - they make poor pothole filler, for example. National service doesn't benefit from idiots in the ranks, either.

Well, compulsory sign-up for service - if you can't hack either military or civilian service well, we'll let you go, but you be at the back of the line for everything the rest of your life, maybe? I don't know, and that would be wandering a bit off topic.

Would make for an interesting discussion though.

My father-in-law was a Marine drill instructor- a "hat" if you will

Fixed that for you. The Army has Drill Sergeants, and "gunny" is the nickname for a gunnery sergeant, which is a rank as opposed to a position like drill instructor.

He also held the position "gunnery sergeant" (asked the Other Half). He was career military, after all, not sure if he held the rank and position concurrently or not, but he was both. Any confusion about that is probably wholly from me and my inexperience with being a Marine.

I only have experience with the Army, as that was where my father served. I do know that Marines are very particular about proper address. Your father-in law was a drill instructor (his assignment, or more properly called his billet) who held the rank of Gunnery Sergeant.

Ectopic pregnancies are rare - by that argument any man who serves aboard a submarine should prophylactically have his appendix removed "just in case" it goes septic on him. No one is disputing that someone with a medical emergency should be removed (if possible - I recognize that sometimes it is NOT possible, and that is a risk and a danger on any deployment for anyone), what I'm saying is that only women are singled out as being excluded for a rare, hypothetical emergency. Women can miscarry and hemorrhage to death, too - but not just from pregnancy. For that matter, men can have sudden heart failure or brain aneurysms. If there is reason to believe someone is at high risk of a medical problem they'd probably be excluded from military service anyway. The women who can meet military physical standards are going to be low risk by reason of being young, fit, and healthy.

Appendicitis can't (yet) be prevented with a simple injection. Surgery carries a greater risk than an IUD or implant. If and when such an anti-appendicitis injection becomes available, you can bet the military will add it to the normal round of pre-deployment injections. EP was just off the top of my head. When do pregnant women normally start taking pre-natal vitamins, do ultrasounds, etc?

While some here are arguing that compulsory birth control somehow violates civil liberties I'd argue that denying a woman a job simply because she MIGHT get pregnant, and after that MIGHT have a complication is a far more grave violation of her civil rights. Imagine if someone argued that men should never be permitted to raise children as a single parent because they might get prostate cancer. (Actually, over a normal lifespan, men are MUCH more likely to have prostate cancer at some point that a woman is to have a life-threatening pregnancy complication.)

Agreed.

[Liberty]

When do pregnant women normally start taking pre-natal vitamins, do ultrasounds, etc?

Ha! A question I can answer! A pregnant woman should start taking prenatal vitamins as soon as she knows she's pregnant. The first doctor appointment usually happens between eight and twelve weeks (mine wasn't until fourteen weeks), and I think all they do at that one is a pap smear and asking you about your medical history, and maybe also listening to the heartbeat. The first ultrasound is not usually until around eighteen or twenty weeks.

So, they would just need to keep a stock of prenatal vitamins.

[eion]

When do pregnant women normally start taking pre-natal vitamins, do ultrasounds, etc?

Ha! A question I can answer! A pregnant woman should start taking prenatal vitamins as soon as she knows she's pregnant. The first doctor appointment usually happens between eight and twelve weeks (mine wasn't until fourteen weeks), and I think all they do at that one is a pap smear and asking you about your medical history, and maybe also listening to the heartbeat. The first ultrasound is not usually until around eighteen or twenty weeks.

So, they would just need to keep a stock of prenatal vitamins.

Which means they can't carry as much food or other medical supplies, which means they can't stay out as long.

Thanks for the info though; it's an area I will probably never become conversant with.

[Broomstick]

Actually, strictly speaking, pre-natal vitamins aren't necessary IF a woman is eating a balanced and nutritious diet. Which, since the food supplies aboard a submarine would, of necessity, be selected carefully anyway shouldn't be a problem. One of the big issues is adequate folate levels, but having levels sufficient for a pregnant woman in the diet would be of benefit to ALL people, men and women alike, and many foods are already fortified with extra amounts of this.

I don't know what food is like in the military these days. My uncles bitched at length about it, but they served in WWII in sometimes appalling conditions (one of them actually almost starved to death at one point - by the time he was rescued he was too weak to sit up, much less walk). The ones in Europe became adept at scavenging and the ones in the Pacific learned to fish, but that's not the situation we're talking about here.

I've heard "the food sucks" and I've heard "they try to get the best food possible for morale purposes". I'll leave it to the current enlisted to report back on that.

I'm old enough to remember when pregnant women never got ultrasounds.... because they hadn't been invented yet. People still had babies anyway. It's not THAT unusual for a woman to not know she's pregnant until 2-3 months along anyway, and even 4 isn't that peculiar. That's not an ideal situation, of course, but it's an illustration that human reproduction is actually a pretty resilient process. Assuming the only pregnancies on board a sub are genuine accidental birth control failures the rate should be extremely small, and the rate of complications much, much smaller yet.

[Liberty]

So, they would just need to keep a stock of prenatal vitamins.

Which means they can't carry as much food or other medical supplies, which means they can't stay out as long.

Seriously, how big do you think prenatal vitamins are? Hint: NOT BIG.

Besides, this would just be in case pregnancy did occur; the women would, in this scenario, be on birth control, so there should be no problem...

[Aaron]

Actually, strictly speaking, pre-natal vitamins aren't necessary IF a woman is eating a balanced and nutritious diet. Which, since the food supplies aboard a submarine would, of necessity, be selected carefully anyway shouldn't be a problem. One of the big issues is adequate folate levels, but having levels sufficient for a pregnant woman in the diet would be of benefit to ALL people, men and women alike, and many foods are already fortified with extra amounts of this.

I don't know what food is like in the military these days. My uncles bitched at length about it, but they served in WWII in sometimes appalling conditions (one of them actually almost starved to death at one point - by the time he was rescued he was too weak to sit up, much less walk). The ones in Europe became adept at scavenging and the ones in the Pacific learned to fish, but that's not the situation we're talking about here.

I've heard "the food sucks" and I've heard "they try to get the best food possible for morale purposes". I'll leave it to the current enlisted to report back on that.

I'm old enough to remember when pregnant women never got ultrasounds.... because they hadn't been invented yet. People still had babies anyway. It's not THAT unusual for a woman to not know she's pregnant until 2-3 months along anyway, and even 4 isn't that peculiar. That's not an ideal situation, of course, but it's an illustration that human reproduction is actually a pretty resilient process. Assuming the only pregnancies on board a sub are genuine accidental birth control failures the rate should be extremely small, and the rate of complications much, much smaller yet.

Our food was excellent, hard rations, mess hall and local purchases where all great, a little heavy on the deep fried stuff but quite good. Canada has some of the best fed troops in the world though, the Americans.....I wouldn't eat in their Mess unless I absolutely had too. Some of it just looked like grey goop (grits?) and the British stuff was just flat out disgusting (who the fuck deep fries bread?).

[eion]

I've heard "the food sucks" and I've heard "they try to get the best food possible for morale purposes". I'll leave it to the current enlisted to report back on that.

My dad used to bring soon-to-expire MREs on camping trips. “Edible but horrible,” is probably the highest compliment I could pay them.

I've heard they've improved since then (1992). Worst in my opinion was probably the BBQ pork and rice.

If I were a cynical man, I might conjecture the food is kept relatively sucky so it can be substituted with better when needed to improve morale.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Worst in my opinion was probably the BBQ pork and rice.

Nothing can compare to the taste of the dreaded breakfast omelet. As for the rest of the stuff if you get it from the Defac it's not the greatest stuff in the world, but it doesn't taste like it could kill you. I hear food on carriers is pretty boss, though.

[Aaron]

Worst in my opinion was probably the BBQ pork and rice.

Nothing can compare to the taste of the dreaded breakfast omelet. As for the rest of the stuff if you get it from the Defac it's not the greatest stuff in the world, but it doesn't taste like it could kill you. I hear food on carriers is pretty boss, though.

Breakfast omelette's? As in the Ham & Cheese one, lung in a bag? Gawd those were truly hideous and we phased them out years ago, I didn't think the Yanks where still punishing folks with that.

[Losonti Tokash]

I had a pork jambalaya MRE, once. I actually thought it was pretty tasty.

[eion]

That's probably one of the newer ones. Like I said, from what I've heard they've gotten better over time, but the last time I had an MRE was when I brought some of our leftoever ones into share with my class in 6th grade after we got back from Germany. Civilian kids all found them pretty cool looking, but not very tasty.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Breakfast omelette's? As in the Ham & Cheese one, lung in a bag? Gawd those were truly hideous and we phased them out years ago, I didn't think the Yanks where still punishing folks with that.

Yah, dude, my Drill Sergeant's favorite thing to do was found out who got the breakfast omelet, sit three feet away from them, and then stare at them with a creepy ass smile as the private ate it.