The End of Men?

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Illuminatus Primus
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The End of Men?

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The Atlantic: The End of Men wrote:The End of Men

Earlier this year, women became the majority of the workforce for the first time in U.S. history. Most managers are now women too. And for every two men who get a college degree this year, three women will do the same. For years, women’s progress has been cast as a struggle for equality. But what if equality isn’t the end point? What if modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women? A report on the unprecedented role reversal now under way— and its vast cultural consequences

By Hanna Rosin

In the 1970s the biologist Ronald Ericsson came up with a way to separate sperm carrying the male-producing Y chromosome from those carrying the X. He sent the two kinds of sperm swimming down a glass tube through ever-thicker albumin barriers. The sperm with the X chromosome had a larger head and a longer tail, and so, he figured, they would get bogged down in the viscous liquid. The sperm with the Y chromosome were leaner and faster and could swim down to the bottom of the tube more efficiently. Ericsson had grown up on a ranch in South Dakota, where he’d developed an Old West, cowboy swagger. The process, he said, was like “cutting out cattle at the gate.” The cattle left flailing behind the gate were of course the X’s, which seemed to please him. He would sometimes demonstrate the process using cartilage from a bull’s penis as a pointer.

In the late 1970s, Ericsson leased the method to clinics around the U.S., calling it the first scientifically proven method for choosing the sex of a child. Instead of a lab coat, he wore cowboy boots and a cowboy hat, and doled out his version of cowboy poetry. (People magazine once suggested a TV miniseries based on his life called Cowboy in the Lab.) The right prescription for life, he would say, was “breakfast at five-thirty, on the saddle by six, no room for Mr. Limp Wrist.” In 1979, he loaned out his ranch as the backdrop for the iconic “Marlboro Country” ads because he believed in the campaign’s central image—“a guy riding on his horse along the river, no bureaucrats, no lawyers,” he recalled when I spoke to him this spring. “He’s the boss.” (The photographers took some 6,500 pictures, a pictorial record of the frontier that Ericsson still takes great pride in.)

Feminists of the era did not take kindly to Ericsson and his Marlboro Man veneer. To them, the lab cowboy and his sperminator portended a dystopia of mass-produced boys. “You have to be concerned about the future of all women,” Roberta Steinbacher, a nun-turned-social-psychologist, said in a 1984 People profile of Ericsson. “There’s no question that there exists a universal preference for sons.” Steinbacher went on to complain about women becoming locked in as “second-class citizens” while men continued to dominate positions of control and influence. “I think women have to ask themselves, ‘Where does this stop?’” she said. “A lot of us wouldn’t be here right now if these practices had been in effect years ago.”

Ericsson, now 74, laughed when I read him these quotes from his old antagonist. Seldom has it been so easy to prove a dire prediction wrong. In the ’90s, when Ericsson looked into the numbers for the two dozen or so clinics that use his process, he discovered, to his surprise, that couples were requesting more girls than boys, a gap that has persisted, even though Ericsson advertises the method as more effective for producing boys. In some clinics, Ericsson has said, the ratio is now as high as 2 to 1. Polling data on American sex preference is sparse, and does not show a clear preference for girls. But the picture from the doctor’s office unambiguously does. A newer method for sperm selection, called MicroSort, is currently completing Food and Drug Administration clinical trials. The girl requests for that method run at about 75 percent.

Even more unsettling for Ericsson, it has become clear that in choosing the sex of the next generation, he is no longer the boss. “It’s the women who are driving all the decisions,” he says—a change the MicroSort spokespeople I met with also mentioned. At first, Ericsson says, women who called his clinics would apologize and shyly explain that they already had two boys. “Now they just call and [say] outright, ‘I want a girl.’ These mothers look at their lives and think their daughters will have a bright future their mother and grandmother didn’t have, brighter than their sons, even, so why wouldn’t you choose a girl?”

Why wouldn’t you choose a girl? That such a statement should be so casually uttered by an old cowboy like Ericsson—or by anyone, for that matter—is monumental. For nearly as long as civilization has existed, patriarchy—enforced through the rights of the firstborn son—has been the organizing principle, with few exceptions. Men in ancient Greece tied off their left testicle in an effort to produce male heirs; women have killed themselves (or been killed) for failing to bear sons. In her iconic 1949 book, TheSecond Sex, the French feminist Simone de Beauvoir suggested that women so detested their own “feminine condition” that they regarded their newborn daughters with irritation and disgust. Now the centuries-old preference for sons is eroding—or even reversing. “Women of our generation want daughters precisely because we like who we are,” breezes one woman in Cookie magazine. Even Ericsson, the stubborn old goat, can sigh and mark the passing of an era. “Did male dominance exist? Of course it existed. But it seems to be gone now. And the era of the firstborn son is totally gone.”

Ericsson’s extended family is as good an illustration of the rapidly shifting landscape as any other. His 26-year-old granddaughter—“tall, slender, brighter than hell, with a take-no-prisoners personality”—is a biochemist and works on genetic sequencing. His niece studied civil engineering at the University of Southern California. His grandsons, he says, are bright and handsome, but in school “their eyes glaze over. I have to tell ’em: ‘Just don’t screw up and crash your pickup truck and get some girl pregnant and ruin your life.’” Recently Ericsson joked with the old boys at his elementary-school reunion that he was going to have a sex-change operation. “Women live longer than men. They do better in this economy. More of ’em graduate from college. They go into space and do everything men do, and sometimes they do it a whole lot better. I mean, hell, get out of the way—these females are going to leave us males in the dust.”

Man has been the dominant sex since, well, the dawn of mankind. But for the first time in human history, that is changing—and with shocking speed. Cultural and economic changes always reinforce each other. And the global economy is evolving in a way that is eroding the historical preference for male children, worldwide. Over several centuries, South Korea, for instance, constructed one of the most rigid patriarchal societies in the world. Many wives who failed to produce male heirs were abused and treated as domestic servants; some families prayed to spirits to kill off girl children. Then, in the 1970s and ’80s, the government embraced an industrial revolution and encouraged women to enter the labor force. Women moved to the city and went to college. They advanced rapidly, from industrial jobs to clerical jobs to professional work. The traditional order began to crumble soon after. In 1990, the country’s laws were revised so that women could keep custody of their children after a divorce and inherit property. In 2005, the court ruled that women could register children under their own names. As recently as 1985, about half of all women in a national survey said they “must have a son.” That percentage fell slowly until 1991 and then plummeted to just over 15 percent by 2003. Male preference in South Korea “is over,” says Monica Das Gupta, a demographer and Asia expert at the World Bank. “It happened so fast. It’s hard to believe it, but it is.” The same shift is now beginning in other rapidly industrializing countries such as India and China.

Up to a point, the reasons behind this shift are obvious. As thinking and communicating have come to eclipse physical strength and stamina as the keys to economic success, those societies that take advantage of the talents of all their adults, not just half of them, have pulled away from the rest. And because geopolitics and global culture are, ultimately, Darwinian, other societies either follow suit or end up marginalized. In 2006, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development devised the Gender, Institutions and Development Database, which measures the economic and political power of women in 162 countries. With few exceptions, the greater the power of women, the greater the country’s economic success. Aid agencies have started to recognize this relationship and have pushed to institute political quotas in about 100 countries, essentially forcing women into power in an effort to improve those countries’ fortunes. In some war-torn states, women are stepping in as a sort of maternal rescue team. Liberia’s president, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, portrayed her country as a sick child in need of her care during her campaign five years ago. Postgenocide Rwanda elected to heal itself by becoming the first country with a majority of women in parliament.

In feminist circles, these social, political, and economic changes are always cast as a slow, arduous form of catch-up in a continuing struggle for female equality. But in the U.S., the world’s most advanced economy, something much more remarkable seems to be happening. American parents are beginning to choose to have girls over boys. As they imagine the pride of watching a child grow and develop and succeed as an adult, it is more often a girl that they see in their mind’s eye.

What if the modern, postindustrial economy is simply more congenial to women than to men? For a long time, evolutionary psychologists have claimed that we are all imprinted with adaptive imperatives from a distant past: men are faster and stronger and hardwired to fight for scarce resources, and that shows up now as a drive to win on Wall Street; women are programmed to find good providers and to care for their offspring, and that is manifested in more- nurturing and more-flexible behavior, ordaining them to domesticity. This kind of thinking frames our sense of the natural order. But what if men and women were fulfilling not biological imperatives but social roles, based on what was more efficient throughout a long era of human history? What if that era has now come to an end? More to the point, what if the economics of the new era are better suited to women?

Once you open your eyes to this possibility, the evidence is all around you. It can be found, most immediately, in the wreckage of the Great Recession, in which three-quarters of the 8 million jobs lost were lost by men. The worst-hit industries were overwhelmingly male and deeply identified with macho: construction, manufacturing, high finance. Some of these jobs will come back, but the overall pattern of dislocation is neither temporary nor random. The recession merely revealed—and accelerated—a profound economic shift that has been going on for at least 30 years, and in some respects even longer.

Earlier this year, for the first time in American history, the balance of the workforce tipped toward women, who now hold a majority of the nation’s jobs. The working class, which has long defined our notions of masculinity, is slowly turning into a matriarchy, with men increasingly absent from the home and women making all the decisions. Women dominate today’s colleges and professional schools—for every two men who will receive a B.A. this year, three women will do the same. Of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most in the next decade in the U.S., all but two are occupied primarily by women. Indeed, the U.S. economy is in some ways becoming a kind of traveling sisterhood: upper-class women leave home and enter the workforce, creating domestic jobs for other women to fill.

The postindustrial economy is indifferent to men’s size and strength. The attributes that are most valuable today—social intelligence, open communication, the ability to sit still and focus—are, at a minimum, not predominantly male. In fact, the opposite may be true. Women in poor parts of India are learning English faster than men to meet the demands of new global call centers. Women own more than 40 percent of private businesses in China, where a red Ferrari is the new status symbol for female entrepreneurs. Last year, Iceland elected Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir, the world’s first openly lesbian head of state, who campaigned explicitly against the male elite she claimed had destroyed the nation’s banking system, and who vowed to end the “age of testosterone.”

Yes, the U.S. still has a wage gap, one that can be convincingly explained—at least in part—by discrimination. Yes, women still do most of the child care. And yes, the upper reaches of society are still dominated by men. But given the power of the forces pushing at the economy, this setup feels like the last gasp of a dying age rather than the permanent establishment. Dozens of college women I interviewed for this story assumed that they very well might be the ones working while their husbands stayed at home, either looking for work or minding the children. Guys, one senior remarked to me, “are the new ball and chain.” It may be happening slowly and unevenly, but it’s unmistakably happening: in the long view, the modern economy is becoming a place where women hold the cards.

In his final book, The Bachelors’ Ball, published in 2007, the sociologist Pierre Bourdieu describes the changing gender dynamics of Béarn, the region in southwestern France where he grew up. The eldest sons once held the privileges of patrimonial loyalty and filial inheritance in Béarn. But over the decades, changing economic forces turned those privileges into curses. Although the land no longer produced the impressive income it once had, the men felt obligated to tend it. Meanwhile, modern women shunned farm life, lured away by jobs and adventure in the city. They occasionally returned for the traditional balls, but the men who awaited them had lost their prestige and become unmarriageable. This is the image that keeps recurring to me, one that Bourdieu describes in his book: at the bachelors’ ball, the men, self-conscious about their diminished status, stand stiffly, their hands by their sides, as the women twirl away.

The role reversal that’s under way between American men and women shows up most obviously and painfully in the working class. In recent years, male support groups have sprung up throughout the Rust Belt and in other places where the postindustrial economy has turned traditional family roles upside down. Some groups help men cope with unemployment, and others help them reconnect with their alienated families. Mustafaa El-Scari, a teacher and social worker, leads some of these groups in Kansas City. El-Scari has studied the sociology of men and boys set adrift, and he considers it his special gift to get them to open up and reflect on their new condition. The day I visited one of his classes, earlier this year, he was facing a particularly resistant crowd.

None of the 30 or so men sitting in a classroom at a downtown Kansas City school have come for voluntary adult enrichment. Having failed to pay their child support, they were given the choice by a judge to go to jail or attend a weekly class on fathering, which to them seemed the better deal. This week’s lesson, from a workbook called Quenching the Father Thirst, was supposed to involve writing a letter to a hypothetical estranged 14-year-old daughter named Crystal, whose father left her when she was a baby. But El-Scari has his own idea about how to get through to this barely awake, skeptical crew, and letters to Crystal have nothing to do with it.

Like them, he explains, he grew up watching Bill Cosby living behind his metaphorical “white picket fence”—one man, one woman, and a bunch of happy kids. “Well, that check bounced a long time ago,” he says. “Let’s see,” he continues, reading from a worksheet. What are the four kinds of paternal authority? Moral, emotional, social, and physical. “But you ain’t none of those in that house. All you are is a paycheck, and now you ain’t even that. And if you try to exercise your authority, she’ll call 911. How does that make you feel? You’re supposed to be the authority, and she says, ‘Get out of the house, bitch.’ She’s calling you ‘bitch’!”

The men are black and white, their ages ranging from about 20 to 40. A couple look like they might have spent a night or two on the streets, but the rest look like they work, or used to. Now they have put down their sodas, and El-Scari has their attention, so he gets a little more philosophical. “Who’s doing what?” he asks them. “What is our role? Everyone’s telling us we’re supposed to be the head of a nuclear family, so you feel like you got robbed. It’s toxic, and poisonous, and it’s setting us up for failure.” He writes on the board: $85,000. “This is her salary.” Then: $12,000. “This is your salary. Who’s the damn man? Who’s the man now?” A murmur rises. “That’s right. She’s the man.”

Judging by the men I spoke with afterward, El-Scari seemed to have pegged his audience perfectly. Darren Henderson was making $33 an hour laying sheet metal, until the real-estate crisis hit and he lost his job. Then he lost his duplex—“there’s my little piece of the American dream”—then his car. And then he fell behind on his child-support payments. “They make it like I’m just sitting around,” he said, “but I’m not.” As proof of his efforts, he took out a new commercial driver’s permit and a bartending license, and then threw them down on the ground like jokers, for all the use they’d been. His daughter’s mother had a $50,000-a-year job and was getting her master’s degree in social work. He’d just signed up for food stamps, which is just about the only social-welfare program a man can easily access. Recently she’d seen him waiting at the bus stop. “Looked me in the eye,” he recalled, “and just drove on by.”

The men in that room, almost without exception, were casualties of the end of the manufacturing era. Most of them had continued to work with their hands even as demand for manual labor was declining. Since 2000, manufacturing has lost almost 6 million jobs, more than a third of its total workforce, and has taken in few young workers. The housing bubble masked this new reality for a while, creating work in construction and related industries. Many of the men I spoke with had worked as electricians or builders; one had been a successful real-estate agent. Now those jobs are gone too. Henderson spent his days shuttling between unemployment offices and job interviews, wondering what his daughter might be doing at any given moment. In 1950, roughly one in 20 men of prime working age, like Henderson, was not working; today that ratio is about one in five, the highest ever recorded.

Men dominate just two of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most over the next decade: janitor and computer engineer. Women have everything else—nursing, home health assistance, child care, food preparation. Many of the new jobs, says Heather Boushey of the Center for American Progress, “replace the things that women used to do in the home for free.” None is especially high-paying. But the steady accumulation of these jobs adds up to an economy that, for the working class, has become more amenable to women than to men.

The list of growing jobs is heavy on nurturing professions, in which women, ironically, seem to benefit from old stereotypes and habits. Theoretically, there is no reason men should not be qualified. But they have proved remarkably unable to adapt. Over the course of the past century, feminism has pushed women to do things once considered against their nature—first enter the workforce as singles, then continue to work while married, then work even with small children at home. Many professions that started out as the province of men are now filled mostly with women—secretary and teacher come to mind. Yet I’m not aware of any that have gone the opposite way. Nursing schools have tried hard to recruit men in the past few years, with minimal success. Teaching schools, eager to recruit male role models, are having a similarly hard time. The range of acceptable masculine roles has changed comparatively little, and has perhaps even narrowed as men have shied away from some careers women have entered. As Jessica Grose wrote in Slate, men seem “fixed in cultural aspic.” And with each passing day, they lag further behind.

As we recover from the Great Recession, some traditionally male jobs will return—men are almost always harder-hit than women in economic downturns because construction and manufacturing are more cyclical than service industries—but that won’t change the long-term trend. When we look back on this period, argues Jamie Ladge, a business professor at Northeastern University, we will see it as a “turning point for women in the workforce.”

The economic and cultural power shift from men to women would be hugely significant even if it never extended beyond working-class America. But women are also starting to dominate middle management, and a surprising number of professional careers as well. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, women now hold 51.4 percent of managerial and professional jobs—up from 26.1 percent in 1980. They make up 54 percent of all accountants and hold about half of all banking and insurance jobs. About a third of America’s physicians are now women, as are 45 percent of associates in law firms—and both those percentages are rising fast. A white-collar economy values raw intellectual horsepower, which men and women have in equal amounts. It also requires communication skills and social intelligence, areas in which women, according to many studies, have a slight edge. Perhaps most important—for better or worse—it increasingly requires formal education credentials, which women are more prone to acquire, particularly early in adulthood. Just about the only professions in which women still make up a relatively small minority of newly minted workers are engineering and those calling on a hard-science background, and even in those areas, women have made strong gains since the 1970s.

Office work has been steadily adapting to women—and in turn being reshaped by them—for 30 years or more. Joel Garreau picks up on this phenomenon in his 1991 book, Edge City, which explores the rise of suburbs that are home to giant swaths of office space along with the usual houses and malls. Companies began moving out of the city in search not only of lower rent but also of the “best educated, most conscientious, most stable workers.” They found their brightest prospects among “underemployed females living in middle-class communities on the fringe of the old urban areas.” As Garreau chronicles the rise of suburban office parks, he places special emphasis on 1978, the peak year for women entering the workforce. When brawn was off the list of job requirements, women often measured up better than men. They were smart, dutiful, and, as long as employers could make the jobs more convenient for them, more reliable. The 1999 movie Office Space was maybe the first to capture how alien and dispiriting the office park can be for men. Disgusted by their jobs and their boss, Peter and his two friends embezzle money and start sleeping through their alarm clocks. At the movie’s end, a male co-worker burns down the office park, and Peter abandons desk work for a job in construction.

Near the top of the jobs pyramid, of course, the upward march of women stalls. Prominent female CEOs, past and present, are so rare that they count as minor celebrities, and most of us can tick off their names just from occasionally reading the business pages: Meg Whitman at eBay, Carly Fiorina at Hewlett-Packard, Anne Mulcahy and Ursula Burns at Xerox, Indra Nooyi at PepsiCo; the accomplishment is considered so extraordinary that Whitman and Fiorina are using it as the basis for political campaigns. Only 3 percent of Fortune 500 CEOs are women, and the number has never risen much above that.

But even the way this issue is now framed reveals that men’s hold on power in elite circles may be loosening. In business circles, the lack of women at the top is described as a “brain drain” and a crisis of “talent retention.” And while female CEOs may be rare in America’s largest companies, they are highly prized: last year, they outearned their male counterparts by 43 percent, on average, and received bigger raises.

Even around the delicate question of working mothers, the terms of the conversation are shifting. Last year, in a story about breast-feeding, I complained about how the early years of child rearing keep women out of power positions. But the term mommy track is slowly morphing into the gender-neutral flex time, reflecting changes in the workforce. For recent college graduates of both sexes, flexible arrangements are at the top of the list of workplace demands, according to a study published last year in the Harvard Business Review. And companies eager to attract and retain talented workers and managers are responding. The consulting firm Deloitte, for instance, started what’s now considered the model program, called Mass Career Customization, which allows employees to adjust their hours depending on their life stage. The program, Deloitte’s Web site explains, solves “a complex issue—one that can no longer be classified as a woman’s issue.”

“Women are knocking on the door of leadership at the very moment when their talents are especially well matched with the requirements of the day,” writes David Gergen in the introduction to Enlightened Power: How Women Are Transforming the Practice of Leadership. What are these talents? Once it was thought that leaders should be aggressive and competitive, and that men are naturally more of both. But psychological research has complicated this picture. In lab studies that simulate negotiations, men and women are just about equally assertive and competitive, with slight variations. Men tend to assert themselves in a controlling manner, while women tend to take into account the rights of others, but both styles are equally effective, write the psychologists Alice Eagly and Linda Carli, in their 2007 book, Through the Labyrinth.

Over the years, researchers have sometimes exaggerated these differences and described the particular talents of women in crude gender stereotypes: women as more empathetic, as better consensus-seekers and better lateral thinkers; women as bringing a superior moral sensibility to bear on a cutthroat business world. In the ’90s, this field of feminist business theory seemed to be forcing the point. But after the latest financial crisis, these ideas have more resonance. Researchers have started looking into the relationship between testosterone and excessive risk, and wondering if groups of men, in some basic hormonal way, spur each other to make reckless decisions. The picture emerging is a mirror image of the traditional gender map: men and markets on the side of the irrational and overemotional, and women on the side of the cool and levelheaded.

We don’t yet know with certainty whether testosterone strongly influences business decision-making. But the perception of the ideal business leader is starting to shift. The old model of command and control, with one leader holding all the decision-making power, is considered hidebound. The new model is sometimes called “post-heroic,” or “transformational” in the words of the historian and leadership expert James MacGregor Burns. The aim is to behave like a good coach, and channel your charisma to motivate others to be hardworking and creative. The model is not explicitly defined as feminist, but it echoes literature about male-female differences. A program at Columbia Business School, for example, teaches sensitive leadership and social intelligence, including better reading of facial expressions and body language. “We never explicitly say, ‘Develop your feminine side,’ but it’s clear that’s what we’re advocating,” says Jamie Ladge.

A 2008 study attempted to quantify the effect of this more-feminine management style. Researchers at Columbia Business School and the University of Maryland analyzed data on the top 1,500 U.S. companies from 1992 to 2006 to determine the relationship between firm performance and female participation in senior management. Firms that had women in top positions performed better, and this was especially true if the firm pursued what the researchers called an “innovation intensive strategy,” in which, they argued, “creativity and collaboration may be especially important”—an apt description of the future economy.

It could be that women boost corporate performance, or it could be that better-performing firms have the luxury of recruiting and keeping high-potential women. But the association is clear: innovative, successful firms are the ones that promote women. The same Columbia-Maryland study ranked America’s industries by the proportion of firms that employed female executives, and the bottom of the list reads like the ghosts of the economy past: shipbuilding, real estate, coal, steelworks, machinery.
I particularly like the implicit classism and racism in the opening picture: Not only is there not a single black woman, but of the five front row women, three of them are Asian (how feminist is a feminism that is only for the white-or-Asian middle-class and up?). All are in business attire, more or less. This is exactly what is annoying about upper middle class + "second-wave feminism". Its all, what to do about the privileged women, bored with their gender roles. What about poor and working women? What about Hispanic women? Black women?

This is an interesting article about gender roles and shifting economic and resultant cultural trends. However, I do not care much for the liberal-intellectual "new economy" service-finance triumphalist bullshit: what's to celebrate about an economy which man-and-woman, becomes increasingly divorced from real industry and only whose largest growing job categories are "nursing, home health assistance, child care, food preparation"? Is this really sustainable progress? Can any of these left-liberal triumphalists explain how one navigates the fundamental and deep-rooted economic, ecological, and social problems which are now starting to become unavoidable? Feminism is still important, but I think there need be cross-gender solidarity among common and working people. Eager for comments from progressives, because I rarely hear much about the intersection of feminist issues with our politics. What can be done for working and middle class men?
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Resinence
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Resinence »

So it's finally reached the point where people have started noticing, people aside from those who are being disenfranchised I mean. Don't expect this to be printed anywhere else, except as a triumphant victory dance - the majority of media writers are privileged middle class women, and unapologetic ideologues.

To young men there is nothing of surprise in this story, anyone who doesn't have their hands over their eye's is seeing it, women are at a distinct advantage in the modern economy. The majority of growing industries are service and administration, ie - shuffling numbers and pretending it can last forever.

What is worrying is how feminism has reacted to the gender roles stabilising, now that women hold the majority of wealth in many first world countries the entitlements given to women in order to counteract cultural prejudice are not being removed. I'm sure someone is going to scream at me for that but I am young and a simple look at my social circle shows: most of the women easily got jobs/hop when they don't like it - most of the men are grinding along in jobs they hate because they know it will be difficult to get a new one.

Current trends are going to produce a lot of angry young men with nothing to do with their lives, this isn't a situation we want, history shows what happens.

Interestingly, and this is speaking from my experience only, the creative industry is still hugely male dominated, though I do not see any prejudice against women. They simply don't seem to reach the level that men do when it comes to real innovation, except for the positions where they are already given some idea of what they are creating. Fashion, romance novels, appropriation of current trends/boring design etc
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Admiral Valdemar
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The service industry is doomed to die anyway, so I'm not going to worry too much about it. The next twenty years will not be like the last twenty, and all that. So while I may find the idea of suited women (and men) domineering the world from glass offices, I'm under no illusion that it will remain so for very long anyway. Our way of life like this is simply unsustainable, and with that way of life goes the social structure that formed with it. It was foolish to be rid of our production industries and let developing nations churn out more skilled, hard working students in areas that weren't management or finance related. Now we're seeing the consequences.

Things will change from the recession's impact alone. We don't even need the other events round the corner to act as catalyst when so many are feeling the pain of this new world now.
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Re: The End of Men?

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Interestingly, and this is speaking from my experience only, the creative industry is still hugely male dominated, though I do not see any prejudice against women. They simply don't seem to reach the level that men do when it comes to real innovation, except for the positions where they are already given some idea of what they are creating. Fashion, romance novels, appropriation of current trends/boring design etc
Protip: if you're going to say something that seems as blatantly prejudicial as this, back it up with a hell of a lot more than an anecdote.
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Temujin »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The service industry is doomed to die anyway, so I'm not going to worry too much about it. The next twenty years will not be like the last twenty, and all that. So while I may find the idea of suited women (and men) domineering the world from glass offices, I'm under no illusion that it will remain so for very long anyway. Our way of life like this is simply unsustainable, and with that way of life goes the social structure that formed with it. It was foolish to be rid of our production industries and let developing nations churn out more skilled, hard working students in areas that weren't management or finance related. Now we're seeing the consequences.

Things will change from the recession's impact alone. We don't even need the other events round the corner to act as catalyst when so many are feeling the pain of this new world now.
I think the service industry is also another area where computers and automation will eventually streamline the work at best, and eliminate it all together at worst. One of the current drawbacks is that a lot of people still don't seem that computer literate. They can do the basics, but really understand little more. Better computer users with better programs (say even limited AI) could easily get a lot more work done, a lot more accurately. Robots will take care of other positions.

I think a whole lot of people are going to find themselves redundant in the next few decades, especially a lot of people in the developing world where the first world goes for its cheap labor.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Big Orange »

Bitter and increasingly unemployed, disenfranchised males is just more potential fodder for criminal gangs, terrorist/revolutionary groups, and angry mobs. Although pissed off single males is a bigger timebomb in China.

Neoliberal Globalization in America and Britain has reached its limits, since it openly frowns upon pragmatic, sustainable manufacturing jobs as being far too expensive to be worth bothering about inhouse, ditto for numerous other vital company activities, so no wonder the unrealistic system collapsed under its own stinginess and stupidity. British Petrolium and Cadbury's could be seen as the most recent victims of this short-term slash and burn mindset. Germany and France have better balanced, more sensibly run "mixed" economies (where unions, governments, and family owners are supposedly more snugly intergrated into the French and German multinationals).
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

Temujin wrote:I think the service industry is also another area where computers and automation will eventually streamline the work at best, and eliminate it all together at worst. One of the current drawbacks is that a lot of people still don't seem that computer literate. They can do the basics, but really understand little more. Better computer users with better programs (say even limited AI) could easily get a lot more work done, a lot more accurately. Robots will take care of other positions.

I think a whole lot of people are going to find themselves redundant in the next few decades, especially a lot of people in the developing world where the first world goes for its cheap labor.
Indeed. I went off on a thought tangent a while back about the ultimate result of automation becoming cheaper and better, and came to the conclusion that eventually the only professions you would need would be leaders and creative types. Politicians, lawyers, musicians, scientists, salespeople etc. Everyone who merely performs tasks would be redundant. In such a society, most of the real value of the economy would be created with little human intervention, so you would almost need a system of welfare for the general population, ie. everyone gets a stipend to live comfortably and those few who are skilled at the needed professions and wish to work receive additional compensation in the market.

For the third worlders you mentioned, however, things are less certain and probably a lot bleaker.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Big Orange »

George Orwell predicted the potentially grave economic and social impact of increasingly more automation in The Road to Wigan Pier. The more recent first rate factories are now scarily automated and here's interesting data on the car industry (collated by the Bureau of Labour Statistics).
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Temujin »

When I read "The World After Oil" in the 80's it opened a chapter describing a lightly manned Japanese factory that ran 24 hrs, and the third shift (except for the night watchman) ran completely automated. IIRC it also discussed a prototype fully automated McDonalds that the Japanese were experimenting with.

More recently I saw a Modern Marvels episode that showed all labor saving machines that exist or are being developed to harvest various crops, fruits and nuts, and could soon make migrant labor a thing of the past.

Along those lines I've always figured that once the garment industry becomes automated, all of those sweatshops will be put out of business. Economies of scale will eventually make the automation affordable, and the sweatshops won't be able to compete with the increase in quality.

The problem is, for anyone who's seen "Blood, Sweat and Takeaways / T-shirts", all of those people in the developing world that have come to rely upon those shit jobs (as horrible as they are) are going to be absolutely fucked, especially as quality work is already hard to get in their massively overpopulated societies.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Simon_Jester »

The question is: how much of this massive automation relies on a cheap-fuel society? Energy to power robots is cheap and paying workers' rent is expensive, especially in developed countries where every worker wants their own apartment and a steady few hundred watts of electricity to play with all day.

We may find this logic reversing if standards of living in the developed world decline as energy becomes more expensive, for all I know.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Simon_Jester wrote:The question is: how much of this massive automation relies on a cheap-fuel society? Energy to power robots is cheap and paying workers' rent is expensive, especially in developed countries where every worker wants their own apartment and a steady few hundred watts of electricity to play with all day.

We may find this logic reversing if standards of living in the developed world decline as energy becomes more expensive, for all I know.
A lot. If anything, I'd see more manual labour in the future, not more automation. Machines can be very efficient, but they also are very energy intensive, and the majority of stuff that we really need i.e. agriculture is powered by diesel. Before mechanisation, it was by hand and any other animal available.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Mayabird »

Even before the energy stuff, it's still often cheaper to use barely-paid people than machinery. Machinery has to be maintained after all, and those costs can add up, but as far as the employers are concerned people can be thrown away when they get sick or injured. For instance, there are orange-picking machines, but they're not used often in the U.S. because it's still cheaper to hire a bunch of illegal immigrants for a pittance and a promise not to report them.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Phantasee »

"Men dominate just two of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most over the next decade: janitor and computer engineer. Women have everything else—nursing, home health assistance, child care, food preparation."

Janitor I can see being replaced by some form of automation. But how do you plan on replacing the nurses and daycare workers? I'm pretty sure there is a lot of service sector jobs that depend on human interaction. It's part of the service itself. Would you prefer going to Starbucks and flirting with the barista or just making a cup of coffee at home?
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Temujin »

Well, machines are usually more expensive at first, but costs decline as they see widespead application. And they are also more effecient and accurate. There is also the fact that many coutries may want to start moving away from foreign dependencies whether it be something like oil, or something like cheap labor. As a result, countries may decide that the higher energy cost is worth it.

As for the energy sources themselves, a series application of nuclear power (in conjuction with alternative energy sources), while expensive at first, could decrease over time. Specifically I'm thinking of those self contained designs that have been discussed before. We're going to have to do this anyway if we want to live in anything other than a pre-industrial society.

Of course, that option will only be available to a handful of currently developed and rather clever developing nations. The rest are going to be SOL.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Coyote »

There will always be a reason to keep people barely employed somehow, because who is going to buy all the crap that the machines are producing?

Automated fast-food restaurants, though... given the quality of the food, that might not be too bad anyhow. As it is, they are basically little more than vending machines with people in them. Turn them into real vending machines and you don't have to worry about the mucus/saliva content of your burger when it gets to you.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Artemas »

Would you prefer going to Starbucks and flirting with the barista or just making a cup of coffee at home?
I think you're asking the wrong crowd.



It says that most of the other 13 female-dominated jobs are "things they used to do at home for free". I wonder what they are specifically.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Phantasee »

But then people don't get the smile with their McDonald's. You guys are seriously overlooking the human element. Way fewer people will go to a restaurant if there's no human interaction other than the other patrons. And when was the last time you didn't talk to the employees, but actually talked to random other people? It's hard to quantify but it's definitely there.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Coyote wrote:There will always be a reason to keep people barely employed somehow, because who is going to buy all the crap that the machines are producing?
This is already the case. For the time being, or at least for a little while, the answer was (and is) to provide the public with cheap (probably ultimately unpayable) debt that can be easily securitized and financialized for further profit in the financial institutions. Does this make any sense in a big picture? Of course not, its obvious. But within the structural frameworks of modern dominant social institutions, these decisions are atomically (in the sense of "atomized"; arbitrary individual tiny decisions subject to extremely localized incentives) rational even though their cumulative outcome is clearly insane.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Coyote »

Phantasee wrote:But then people don't get the smile with their McDonald's. You guys are seriously overlooking the human element...
Depends; they do have those very realistic-looking secretary/information droids in Japan. If you can guarantee an attractive, attentive, and possibly even mildly flirtatious servodroid as your kiosk interface, maybe that'll be all they need.
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In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Temujin »

For a lot of customer service I honestly would go with the AI driven Japanimatron. Most people serving at counters and as cashiers aren't that friendly, helpful or intelligent.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Invictus ChiKen »

Temujin wrote:For a lot of customer service I honestly would go with the AI driven Japanimatron. Most people serving at counters and as cashiers aren't that friendly, helpful or intelligent.
I agree many places I go the people at C.S. act like I am a distraction and sometimes this can be true as the managers want them to do a lot of stuff and "I was helping a customer" isn't a valid excuse for not getting it done ASAP.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by General Mung Beans »

Coyote wrote:There will always be a reason to keep people barely employed somehow, because who is going to buy all the crap that the machines are producing?

Automated fast-food restaurants, though... given the quality of the food, that might not be too bad anyhow. As it is, they are basically little more than vending machines with people in them. Turn them into real vending machines and you don't have to worry about the mucus/saliva content of your burger when it gets to you.
For one thing that would limit the food choices and it probably means no large scale combos or anything like that. Plus some fast food restaurants do make to order.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Resinence »

Anguirus wrote:
Interestingly, and this is speaking from my experience only, the creative industry is still hugely male dominated, though I do not see any prejudice against women. They simply don't seem to reach the level that men do when it comes to real innovation, except for the positions where they are already given some idea of what they are creating. Fashion, romance novels, appropriation of current trends/boring design etc
Protip: if you're going to say something that seems as blatantly prejudicial as this, back it up with a hell of a lot more than an anecdote.
Yawn, shaming language.

Not enough women in top arts posts apparently.

A simple search would find you dozens of papers written on the effects of testosterone on divergent thinking (even in females) over the last 30 years. Also see Richard Lynn and Paul Irwing's research showing that there is more variation in the intelligence of men than women. With women having more around the average mark and men having more than women at the dumb side of the scale but also being dominant in the upper levels of intelligence

Research on post-menopausal women shows increase in divergent thinking ability following increase in testosterone.

http://synapse.princeton.edu/~sam/coren ... inking.pdf

On the relation between handedness and creativity but the results interestingly show that while its true it seems to have an effect its mostly only men, with left handed men scoring higher than all other groups. Not that it matters, there is also a lot of research showing that women tend to be more creative, and meta-study shows it about even. I personally think thats not the reason anyway, but more that women choose jobs that are more stable but not conductive to creation of (inherently risky) novel ideas, though I am guessing you will demand sources on "women engage in less risk taking behaviour than men" despite it being blindingly obvious that testosterone increases the prominence of such behaviour.

Of note is that in that uk article on women in the arts the solution proposed is to change the work environment and management style to be more feminine, despite the fact that feminine work environments tend to focus on processes and checks rather than being goal orientated and are basically unfulfilling to many men. And that red tape is basically the anti-thesis of novel ideas.

Really though, I don't give a shit if you think I'm prejudiced for stating the simple fact that it is surprising when I see women in high positions in the creative world, they are rare and it is surprising. Unless you wish to debate my personal conclusions based on what I see every day with something other than "because women are discriminated against because they always have been in the work force and men in the arts industry are just behind everyone else despite being more liberal on average because I say so" which I have heard probably 500 times, though I really don't see the point in debating over it, unless you are simply pissed off I said one of the things that are 'not to be said' in polite company. ie, discrimination is not the entire reason that women are under-represented in some industries.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by Dooey Jo »

Resinence wrote:though I am guessing you will demand sources on "women engage in less risk taking behaviour than men" despite it being blindingly obvious that testosterone increases the prominence of such behaviour.
Thankfully, science relies on data, not what's "blindingly obvious", even though science journalists of course generally prefer to reinforce the latter.
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Re: The End of Men?

Post by SirNitram »

Yawn, shaming language.
And what is that supposed to mean, in whatever wit you thought you had? Language meant to shame? Yes. Homo Sapiens, being social creatures, can be manipulated by shame as in any other form of aversion avoidance, without the violence, pain, or cruelty.

Of course, if that is what you meant, surely you have some reason to be sick of shame. Or to beleive we shouldn't be. What excuse you burble out will be interesting.

As for your claims.. They are claims, nothing more, and 'Personal Conclusions' are more accurately stated as 'Anecdotes'. The singular of 'Data' is not 'Anecdote'.


Of course, as a young man myself, happily married, with clearly defined roles between my wife and I.. And without any of the whiny bullshit from the article, you will no doubt come up with some excuse as to why I don't count, or even are the enemy.
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