UK 'obliged' to allow some prisoners to vote

[ray245]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11671164

The UK has a "legal obligation" to let some prisoners vote under a 2005 European ruling, a minister has said.

Minister Mark Harper said the coalition accepted a need to change the law but had not yet decided which inmates it would affect.

Five years ago the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled the UK's long-standing voting ban was unlawful.

Ministers have been advised that continuing to resist the ruling would lead to costly compensation payouts.

Mr Harper told the Commons: "I think every member in the House is exasperated about this but we have no choice about complying with the law.

"The fact that the previous government failed to do what it knew was necessary for five years has left our country in a much worse position, both in terms of having to pay damages potentially, and case law has moved on.
'Empire-building'

"The only thing worse than giving prisoners the vote would be giving them the vote and having to pay them damages."

The ECHR ruling in 2005 considered a "blanket ban" to be discriminatory in a case brought by convicted killer John Hirst, of Hull.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme prisoners must have a legitimate channel through which to air their grievances.

"In this system where you've got a democracy, people can put pressure and lobby in parliament for changes in the law and improved conditions, but you can't do that if you haven't got the vote," he said.

"All prisoners can do is riot, if they've got a complaint, so you've got to give them this legitimate channel."

But think tank Civitas said making MPs more responsive to criminals was not what a law-abiding society needed.

Director David Green said the government had been forced into the decision by the ECHR and added: "It is another example of judges acting as if they were politicians. It is judicial empire-building."

Those around Mr Cameron say he is "absolutely horrified" by the idea of changing the law but reluctantly accepts there is no alternative.

And it's not hard to understand Mr Cameron's disquiet.

Apart from his own unease at the idea of giving prisoners the vote - he knows full well it's a policy that is almost certain to attract bruising headlines. It will also enrage many traditional Tory supporters.

But there is a second pressing concern.

As this is a decision brought about by a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, it is almost certain to further darken the already sour mood among Tory backbenchers over Europe, particularly in the wake of last week's EU summit and the decision to increase British funding.

It may even provoke some Tory MPs to ponder what happened to the party's commitment to a British Bill of Rights to replace the European Convention on Human Rights.

No wonder then, that Mr Cameron is less than chuffed.
Right denied

Prime Minister David Cameron is said to have reluctantly accepted there is no way of keeping the 140-year-old ban on sentenced prisoners voting in general elections, according to BBC political correspondent Reeta Chakrabarti.

But our correspondent said the PM would resist allowing the vote to those prisoners who had committed the most serious offences, such as serial killers and child murderers.

Under the ECHR ruling each country can decide which offences should carry restrictions to voting rights.

It is also thought judges may be given responsibility for deciding which criminals should be allowed to vote when sentencing.

Lord Falconer, a former Labour justice secretary, said he disagreed with the ECHR's ruling, but accepted the government ultimately had to comply with it.

He said individual countries should be able to impose a voting ban on convicted prisoners, and rejected the ECHR's verdict that it contravened the European Convention on Human Rights.

Suggestions that the UK could simply pull out of the convention to get around the problem were "incredibly disproportionate and wrong", he told Today.

The Scottish government, meanwhile, has restated its opposition to giving prisoners the right to vote.

But a spokesman for First Minister Alex Salmond said although justice was devolved to Scotland, the decision on voting eligibility and compensation claims was a "reserved matter" for the UK government and not for Holyrood.

Prisoners on remand awaiting trial, fine defaulters and people jailed for contempt of court are already permitted to vote but more than 70,000 prisoners currently serving sentences in UK jails are prevented.

Inmates were originally denied the right to vote under the 1870 Forfeiture Act and the ban was retained in the Representation of the People Act of 1983.

The former Labour administration has undertaken a series of consultations on the voting rights of prisoners but has not legislated on the issue.

In June the Council of Europe, an inter-governmental organisation that oversees and enforces rulings made by the ECHR, urged the coalition to act.

Juliet Lyon, director of the Prison Reform Trust, told the BBC many prison governors believe voting is an important part of resettlement and prison is about rehabilitation as well as punishment.

Frances Crook, director of the Howard League for Penal Reform, said the right to vote was a good means of engaging individuals with the responsibilities of citizenship ahead of a safe return to the community.

To be honest, I'm surprised that prisoners are given a right to vote in Europe.

[salm]

To be honest, I'm surprised that prisoners are given a right to vote in Europe.

Why? Voting is a fundamental right in a democracy and it´s not like prisoners have some kind of relevant lobby or powerful voting block in countries that allow them to put preassure on politicians.

[ray245]

To be honest, I'm surprised that prisoners are given a right to vote in Europe.

Why? Voting is a fundamental right in a democracy and it´s not like prisoners have some kind of relevant lobby or powerful voting block in countries that allow them to put pressure on politicians.

I'm not denying that prisoner should not have a right to vote. I'm just surprised that there are nations that actually acknowledge it.

[Xon]

To be honest, I'm surprised that prisoners are given a right to vote in Europe.

In Australia, a citizen has the constitutional right to vote provided they ment some stupidly easy qualifications. Of sound mind(including over 18) and not in prison for more than 3 years. Once they have been released, the right to vote is restored. Oh, and anyone convicted of treason/treachery and not pardoned.

[Serafina]

To be honest, I'm surprised that prisoners are given a right to vote in Europe.

IIRC, in Germany, you can only loose your right for voting if you are committing a crime that actively goes against democracy, in which case our supreme court can strip you of the right to vote (and several others). That never happened since the foundation of the BRD.
Other than that, you are not allowed to vote when you are in a psychiatric hospital due to a crime, or if you have been assigned a legal guardian who cares for all of your matters because you are mentally completely incapable of doing so.

But you do NOT lose your right to vote just because you are in prison - you could murder 50 people and you would still be allowed to vote. You can't get elected for any political office while you are in prison, but that's it.

[Siege]

It's pretty much the same here in the Netherlands; convicts are allowed to vote (though they have to authorise somebody to do it for them since they can't leave the prison to travel to their city of residence), unless a judge rules them to be not of sound mind and deprives them of that right. To be honest, I don't quite understand why the British are making such a fuss over this -- it strikes me as another case of EU-phobic whinging, really.

[Korto]

I would think that when your proportion of prisoners to other voters gets so high as to reasonably affect an election, you probably need to have a bit of a hard look at your society.

So I can understand why the US doesn't allow them to vote.

On a serious note though, I would imagine they would have to vote in the electorate they were living in "outside", as if they voted in their current electorate, a large prison maybe could routinely decide an electorate.

[Skgoa]

Hm, this doesn't add to the thread, but does anyone know whether prisoners in Germany are registered as having their residence at their prison?

[Phantasee]

I thought one of the main reasons behind prisons was that it was to deny you some of your rights and freedoms as a punishment?

[General Zod]

I thought one of the main reasons behind prisons was that it was to deny you some of your rights and freedoms as a punishment?

We let prisoners vote in the US. Some states even let felons vote with no restrictions at all.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

It's pretty much the same here in the Netherlands; convicts are allowed to vote (though they have to authorise somebody to do it for them since they can't leave the prison to travel to their city of residence), unless a judge rules them to be not of sound mind and deprives them of that right. To be honest, I don't quite understand why the British are making such a fuss over this -- it strikes me as another case of EU-phobic whinging, really.

The winging comes from the Tories, who are the 'law and order' party. They've not been quite so blatant about it since they formed the Coalition with the Lib Dems, since they're actually cutting police funding, but the whole thing is still basically seen as an embarrassment for Cameron. Thus, whinging, so they can make it absolutely crystal clear tat they're only doing it because they were forced by the EEEEEEEEVIL EU.

[Serafina]

I thought one of the main reasons behind prisons was that it was to deny you some of your rights and freedoms as a punishment?

Well, i would argue that the main reason is to protect society by preventing the criminals from commiting further crimes.
But even when we use your reasoning, we do NOT strip prisoners of all of their basic human rights - only of their freedom of movement and some limitations on others when necessary. In a democracy, the right to vote is a basic and very important right. There is no good reason to strip them of it.

[The Yosemite Bear]

here in the US you can't vote if you've got a felony conviction, but you can STILL run for office. Including folks busted in curruption cases.

[Jawawithagun]

Hm, this doesn't add to the thread, but does anyone know whether prisoners in Germany are registered as having their residence at their prison?

As far as I know, yes. Except for short-term sentences.

They also usually will vote by letter as they cannot go to vote in person.

[Glocksman]

here in the US you can't vote if you've got a felony conviction, but you can STILL run for office. Including folks busted in curruption cases.

Prisoner voting is a state issue, not Federal, though only Maine and Vermont permit serving offenders to vote.
14 states permanently ban convicted felons from voting even after they've completed their sentence.

My own state (Indiana) allows felons to vote after they've completed their sentence.

[General Zod]

here in the US you can't vote if you've got a felony conviction, but you can STILL run for office. Including folks busted in curruption cases.

Incorrect. I already pointed out above that's not true, and it varies from state to state.