Gabe Watson case: on double jeopardy, extradition and death

[Korto]

I'll be really interested then in hearing how he planned to murder her, because "I'll take her scuba-diving, and then she'll just stop breathing for no apparent reason and then I'll abandon her (evil laugh)" doesn't really do it for me.

[Broomstick]

The accusation is that he held her in a sort of bear hug, turned off her air supply, restrained her until she was dead, turned the air supply back on, then let her drop to the bottom.

[Lusankya]

Then why wasn't any of the evidence of that presented in order to help support a murder charge in Australia, then? If there was evidence that he'd actually planned to kill her while scuba diving while in the states, that should have added some extra weight to the charges against him - enough to either support a murder charge or at least get him more jail time for the manslaughter charge that he faced.

[Thanas]

Ah, OK - I did a little research. It seems that Alabama claims to have evidence Watson planned the murder while in Alabama, and married Tina under false pretensions to lure her away which would fall under a type of kidnapping (kidnapping by deception). That would give them some basis prosecution in Alabama. Supposedly, assurances have been given that the death penalty will not be imposed in return for extradition.

I feel a bit doubtful about that as well. So the plan was to get her to take diving lessons, marry her, take an expensive trip to Australia and then drown her in plain sight, in one of the most popular diving sites of Australia, where a lot of people are diving each day? That does not scream criminal mastermind to me. Why not persuade her to dive at an abandoned site and then drown her there?

[weemadando]

The vandalism thing was in the wiki article, via the Townsville Bulletin: http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/ar ... _news.html

As for "what could he have done"? Assuming that she wasn't breathing you can perform very basic CPR while still underwater. I was only advanced certified, not rescue, but you still had to do a lot of rescue and recovery drills to pass. Even if someone is unconscious, then you can recover them to the surface fairly safely. Depending on the scenario, you might have to ascend rapidly, hand-off to someone on the dive boat then go back down yourself to take yourself through safe decompression procedures, or you too can go and spend time in a barochamber if it's an emergency serious enough that going through deco isn't an option. Most dive boats will have a serious first aid supply stock on board, including (most importantly) medicinal O2 which can be a genuine lifesaver for people who have been drowning/not breathing/suffering from any number of other weird and wonderful conditions (CO/CO2 poisoning, shallow water black-out syndrome, salt-water aspiration syndrome...)

[Simon_Jester]

I agree with Korto. Whether he did in fact kill her or not, I'd like to see anyone prove that he planned it in advance at all, let alone planned it in Alabama and married her under false pretenses specifically so he could get her out to Australia and kill her there.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Is the flowers thing really vandalism? Its his wife's grave, and he was removing them. Maybe its a part of the ongoing bad blood with the parents, maybe he doesn't want people constantly reminding him of his wife's death. Either way, isn't he allowed to maintain her grave how he wants?

If my (nonexistant) wife died and her family accused me of murdering her, I'd probably be angry with them as well.

This guy just doesn't sound like a cold-blooded killer, especially considering the only motive they have is 'He was known to be obsessed with her'. Then why did she marry him?

Edit: I just saw something about the Alabama AG is going to be adding a charge of 'kidnapping by deception'. How the hell does that work? They were really in love, really married, and really went on a Honeymoon. I can't wait to see what evidence they have.

[Stofsk]

This is pretty shocking, all things considered. The jurisdictional issue is the most solid thing against this, as well as double jeopardy. Simply put I don't see how Alabama has any jurisdiction in this case at all. I don't see how a judge can allow this to go ahead.

That said, the vandalising the grave thing is another matter though. I don't buy the whole 'he's maintaining it therefore he can do whatever' argument. It's not weighty evidence or anything, but it's pretty incongruous. It had happened numerous times before, enough for the family to complain to the cops about it, and he got caught on camera. I don't have much sympathy for him.

I don't know who I hate more in this case. Both sides come across as disgusting.

[weemadando]

I had a discussion with people about this at work today. The general consensus is that he's an unlikeable sort, but that doesn't give anyone the right to pervert justice.

[Questor]

My view on it is this:

Kidnapping and murder are separate crimes. If the Alabama DA can convince the judges in Australia that they have the evidence to extradite, they get their shot at him for kidnapping. Everything I've ever been taught though would suggest that the murder charge would be double jeopardy.

On the balance, I think that he should probably be indicted here, then when he's served his sentence in Australia, they can try him when he gets sent back here.

How would it work if he beat the charges here? Would Australia have to extradite him back?

[ShadowDragon8685]

He's already served his time down under. They released him from prison and now they're holding him in a not-prison while they explore the legal avenues of whether or not they can ship him back to the proud state of Alabama to face justice again or not.

Frankly though, this all looks like bullshit, I'd say. Unless they like, found a diary of his own, written before he started seeing her, that states outright his plan to be something to the effect of,

1: Trick woman with life insurance policy into loving me
2: Trick woman in love with me into marrying me
3: Get wife to take diving lessons
4: Take wife to Australia to go diving.
5: Kill wife, make it look like accident.
6: PROFIT!

Then they've got nothing. Kidnapping by deception is a hell of a stretch, not the least of which is the fact that the defense can argue there was no deception and that he loved his wife and she loved him... Well, they can't exactly call Tina Watson to the stand without breaking out a Ouija board and hoodoo voodoo hasn't been legally admissable in court since the Salem Witch Trials anyway. Even if Gabe Watson, the festering cunt, takes the stand, he's just going to say he loved his wife.

It's a he-said, she-said thing, where she can't say anything and he can say whatever the hell he likes. Cynically, I suspect that this is just an end-run around double jeopardy and that they want to try him for her murder using kidnapping as a proxy charge.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

As for "what could he have done"? Assuming that she wasn't breathing you can perform very basic CPR while still underwater. I was only advanced certified, not rescue, but you still had to do a lot of rescue and recovery drills to pass. Even if someone is unconscious, then you can recover them to the surface fairly safely. Depending on the scenario, you might have to ascend rapidly, hand-off to someone on the dive boat then go back down yourself to take yourself through safe decompression procedures, or you too can go and spend time in a barochamber if it's an emergency serious enough that going through deco isn't an option. Most dive boats will have a serious first aid supply stock on board, including (most importantly) medicinal O2 which can be a genuine lifesaver for people who have been drowning/not breathing/suffering from any number of other weird and wonderful conditions (CO/CO2 poisoning, shallow water black-out syndrome, salt-water aspiration syndrome...)

I'm actually right in the middle of doing BSAC's lifesaver course. I guess he was PADI, since he was American, so he might have learned things differently, but I'd suspect things would be pretty similar.

In any case, according to BSAC, if there's an unconscious, non-breathing casualty underwater, you're supposed to get them to the surface with a controlled buoyant lift, try to summon assistance, then perform rescue breaths until you're too tired to continue or somebody else takes over. If that means you go into the pot for a couple of days, then you go into the pot for a couple of days. There isn't any mention of descending to complete deco, because if the problem was serious enough that you needed to make an emergency ascent like that in the first place, then there probably won't be time. If it's not that serious (like, they ran out of air and they're on their buddy's octopus) then you're supposed to make an immediate normal ascent if there's enough air. I've actually been in that situation due to unexpectedly cold water and an unstoppable freeflow, and while it's bloody terrifying, it's not an immediate, life threatening emergency unless you're stupid enough to dive alone.

In fact, the situation he apparently found himself in (that is, with an unconscious, non-breathing casualty underwater), is covered in the most basic 'real' BSAC qualification. Since he's a rescue diver, he damn well should know what he's supposed to do. The only 'valid' reason not to take her to the surface in an emergency ascent is if doing so would present a danger to him as well.

Now, of course, there are other possible reasons why he would do what he did. For example, the standard response to being separated from your buddy is to stop, make a 360 degree search, and then surface. If she got into problems, they got separated and then he ascended when he couldn't find her, then he's a terrible buddy for straying so far away, but he's not a murderer. I don't know what the visibilit was like though; if it was bad, then that becomes a lot more likely.

[weemadando]

That pretty much sums it up.

The "re-descend" option is most likely if you are in a group and shore-diving, or going from a fixed platform (as many setups are on the reef), rather than off a boat so that the casualty is being treated on shore and you're doing your best to avoid becoming another one.

I haven't had to do a genuine recovery myself but I've been in a group that has, when someone completely flipped out during a wreck penetration dive, bugged out, inflated the BC, went like the clappers for the surface and had to be chased up by the lead, who then dragged them back down to depth and then took them through the proper deco stops.

Again it all comes down to it being a breach of trust and duty of care (as a rescue cert'd diver and dive buddy).