outsourcing homework to India

[Ryan Thunder]

He is a physicist. His exams consist of

"Solve this equation" or "explain how you would use (with math) quantum mechanics to explain This"

Yeah I've taken physics tests that weren't too bad. They'd give me a reference sheet with the equations on it, but no indication as to which was for what. That was a reasonable compromise, I thought. They still get to assume that you're just waiting for any possible opportunity to cheat without any proof whatsoever (lol if they tried that in court), but with the reference to jog your memory it's not a totally worthless indicator of your understanding of the concepts. The prof was like "holy shit you got a 90 on my midterm". Then I discovered I can't do anything more complex than basic calculus.

There's still the issue of just forgetting something or having a brain fart and confusing two equations. You won't have time to know for sure.

EDIT: I've taken tests where I legitimately did not understand the material as well as I should have, by the way. I can admit that. So I'm not just blaming my failures on the evaluation medium, if anybody thinks that.

Me, I am a biologist. My exams consist of "Identify this specimen" and "How might spatio-temporal variation in water budgets affect species composition in wetlands across a landscape"

Well, I won't pretend to know much about your field (because I don't), so, if you don't mind my asking; do you really identify species off the top of your head in the field, though? Don't you have to look things up at least occasionally? How can you keep it all straight in your head?

[aerius]

I'm guessing you're in the hard sciences. In history, there are NO exams at all at the graduate level, and many higher level undergraduate courses also do not have exams. Papers are critical. After all, the point of history is not to regurgitate facts, it's to explain and weave things together. From what I have seen, writing is the single most important skill for a historian to have.

I was in computers. Still, the solution for history and other such courses is not that hard, instead of giving out a dozen make-work papers to write up, 90% of which will be either blown off or plagiarized, you give the class 1 or 2 big research papers for the entire term and make the students document all their work including the notes and rough drafts. With fewer papers to mark the instructors can follow the students all the way through the entire process to ensure they're doing their own work.

My boss is never going to come over to my desk and say "Write a program to do xyz on a sheet of paper without any references in 15 minutes it must work perfectly with no debugging lol" and breathe down my neck with a pink slip in hand while he waits. That's just a recipe for shitty, unchecked code.

Work in the real world long enough and it'll happen. If it doesn't it means your boss thinks you're a retard and doesn't trust you with the important stuff. Otherwise you'll get something messy dropped on you from above; here's a problem, you got a day to fix it, we've never seen this shit before so there's no manuals to look up. Have fun. And he'll be checking up on you every 15 minutes because the problem is costing the company $50,000 an hour. Been there, done that, fun times at RIM.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Well, I won't pretend to know much about your field (because I don't), so, if you don't mind my asking; do you really identify species off the top of your head in the field, though? Don't you have to look things up at least occasionally? How can you keep it all straight in your head?

Yes. Yes I do. Depending on the course, I may not have to get it to species, just family, genus or whathaveyou. Sometimes I may have a key as well. It depends.

When I took herpetology as an undergrad, I was expected to be able to ID any snake, lizard, frog, salamander, or turtle in the state of Arizona. From memory. I did too, and still can.

[phongn]

My boss is never going to come over to my desk and say "Write a program to do xyz on a sheet of paper without any references in 15 minutes it must work perfectly with no debugging lol" and breathe down my neck with a pink slip in hand while he waits. That's just a recipe for shitty, unchecked code.

I've had not a few professors who have given CS exams based on your ability to think and not as you mentioned above. Also, frankly, the sort of questions asked on an exam should be trivial enough to be able to write out longhand with a minimum of bugs.

Work in the real world long enough and it'll happen. If it doesn't it means your boss thinks you're a retard and doesn't trust you with the important stuff. Otherwise you'll get something messy dropped on you from above; here's a problem, you got a day to fix it, we've never seen this shit before so there's no manuals to look up. Have fun. And he'll be checking up on you every 15 minutes because the problem is costing the company $50,000 an hour. Been there, done that, fun times at RIM.

Hell, even in the public/academic/government sector it happens. The system breaks, you're the only developer available (or the only one period) and users are pissed. Time to step up to bat.

[Questor]

When I took herpetology as an undergrad, I was expected to be able to ID any snake, lizard, frog, salamander, or turtle in the state of Arizona. From memory. I did too, and still can.

That's amazing. My hat's off to you.

I have such trouble memorizing things that I'd probably not be able to do that. How long was this course?

[Alyrium Denryle]

When I took herpetology as an undergrad, I was expected to be able to ID any snake, lizard, frog, salamander, or turtle in the state of Arizona. From memory. I did too, and still can.

That's amazing. My hat's off to you.

I have such trouble memorizing things that I'd probably not be able to do that. How long was this course?

Single semester. Though really, most of them are pretty distinct. In Entomology, when things are most certainly NOT distinct, the exam was identifying specimens using a key, because you could NEVER do it otherwise.

[Ryan Thunder]

Single semester. Though really, most of them are pretty distinct. In Entomology, when things are most certainly NOT distinct, the exam was identifying specimens using a key, because you could NEVER do it otherwise.

Well, still, I have to respect you for that since I doubt I could do it myself.

[Knife]

A lot of fields use memorized facts and what not as a basis for critical thinking in their jobs. I've had to memorize thousands of anatomical facts and hundreds of medicinal factoids along with other things, sheer memorization of procedures too, in a health care setting. Most of my tests to go for memorized facts, and then extrapolate from there into scenarios. Testing for a knowledge base isn't a bad thing, per say, if they go on to test how you critically think the next steps.

[Questor]

A lot of fields use memorized facts and what not as a basis for critical thinking in their jobs. I've had to memorize thousands of anatomical facts and hundreds of medicinal factoids along with other things, sheer memorization of procedures too, in a health care setting. Most of my tests to go for memorized facts, and then extrapolate from there into scenarios. Testing for a knowledge base isn't a bad thing, per say, if they go on to test how you critically think the next steps.

Oh, I can memorize stuff I use on a daily basis, but I was thinking that the species were very similar the way some of them seemed in my own bio classes.

[PainRack]

Yeah I've taken physics tests that weren't too bad. They'd give me a reference sheet with the equations on it, but no indication as to which was for what. That was a reasonable compromise, I thought. They still get to assume that you're just waiting for any possible opportunity to cheat without any proof whatsoever (lol if they tried that in court), but with the reference to jog your memory it's not a totally worthless indicator of your understanding of the concepts. The prof was like "holy shit you got a 90 on my midterm". Then I discovered I can't do anything more complex than basic calculus.

There's still the issue of just forgetting something or having a brain fart and confusing two equations. You won't have time to know for sure.

Ok... here's the question. At what level of physics do you think an inability to memorise the equations but understand the concepts of physics would suffice to show that you have a basic understanding of it?

Ohm law essentially IS an equation. So's is Newton law of gravitation.

And this ignores the standard conceptualisation questions like the infamous drop the ball down the planet question.
If you don't understand or memorise the equation in the first place, even giving you the bog standard equation is not going to aid you in answering that.

I'm sure that at certain levels, the complexity of the equation will mean that its would be easier for you to understand the concept rather than memorise the equation, but even for the "You can't know the exact location of a particle or its momentum in quantum physics", if you didn't know that the equation was an imaginery number which expanded on the graph gave you the answer that momentum= positive infinity to negative infinity(as defined by the area its applied to) when location=x, you STILL needs to know what the equation roughly looks like to understand that concept.

A lot of fields use memorized facts and what not as a basis for critical thinking in their jobs. I've had to memorize thousands of anatomical facts and hundreds of medicinal factoids along with other things, sheer memorization of procedures too, in a health care setting. Most of my tests to go for memorized facts, and then extrapolate from there into scenarios. Testing for a knowledge base isn't a bad thing, per say, if they go on to test how you critically think the next steps.

To give an example of how memorised facts/scenarios works in the field, here's a real case that just happened to me.
I had a patient undergoing chemotherapy via a peripheral continous intravenous infusion, the end of the IV line developed a red rash.
What are you going to do?

The two standard scenarios we learnt was that based on the issue of phlebritis and chemotherapy extravasation. Did we have to go look stuff up? Yeah, to confirm that the drug in question was an irritant that could have caused the redness even if it didn't extravastate. But if you simply DON"T have the memorised facts on hand, one simply can't compare and contrast the situation to determine which caused the redness. And the wrong answer could mean losing your hand.

So pray tell, Ryan, do you still think that memorised answers and what you would do scenario questions in an exam is still worthless? Its worthless only if the person is unable to translate thought into action, something that isn't tested in written exams but in projects and job training/assignments.

[Alferd Packer]

To the OP, I actually happened upon a similar article, though this comes straight from the guy who's actually written papers for others.

The Shadow Scholar

Bit of a long read, but fascinating. It also got me thinking that the problem is exceedingly difficult to solve because of the ubiquity of information. That isn't to say that the ebil Internets is to blame, of course, but I guess it underscores the need to begin to alter the way students of certain disciplines demonstrate that they've mastered a subject.

[ShadowDragon8685]

To the OP, I actually happened upon a similar article, though this comes straight from the guy who's actually written papers for others.

The Shadow Scholar

Bit of a long read, but fascinating. It also got me thinking that the problem is exceedingly difficult to solve because of the ubiquity of information. That isn't to say that the ebil Internets is to blame, of course, but I guess it underscores the need to begin to alter the way students of certain disciplines demonstrate that they've mastered a subject.

There is a way I can think of: non-adversarial demonstration of the student's mastery of the subject in the presence of someone who is an accepted master of the topic. The problem with that is that it's very time-intensive and would have a very hard time following any kind of set structure the way papers or tests are.

Might be the only way to do it would be apprenticeships - send the student out for an internship working alongside someone who knows the business, and if they get sent back as idiotic, they didn't learn anything, and if they're found to have learned what they were supposed to have learned, pass them? Problem is that any scheme of that nature makes it hard to assign a numerical scale of achievement.

[Simon_Jester]

There is a way I can think of: non-adversarial demonstration of the student's mastery of the subject in the presence of someone who is an accepted master of the topic. The problem with that is that it's very time-intensive and would have a very hard time following any kind of set structure the way papers or tests are.

Might be the only way to do it would be apprenticeships - send the student out for an internship working alongside someone who knows the business, and if they get sent back as idiotic, they didn't learn anything, and if they're found to have learned what they were supposed to have learned, pass them? Problem is that any scheme of that nature makes it hard to assign a numerical scale of achievement.

This is how graduate school already works, or is supposed to. But yes, the big barrier to the system is the amount of time invested per student by experts, and also the experts' reluctance to throw away that effort by rejecting an unsuccessful student. Not that you can normally fake your way through graduate school entirely, but I'm not surprised if there is a certain amount of deception and "I didn't really write this" going on.

[Bottlestein]

^ It would be superb if the second two years of undergrad were structured the way grad school is. It's shocking how many of our incoming grad students don't know how research works - or even know that the journals in a field have tiers of differing quality. This "review paper = research" mentality - which after all is what undergrad "papers" are - means that not only do undergrads not have the training to pursue graduate education - they don't even have the mindset to undergo the training.

For example - 1st year Master's students try to "extend" their undergrad senior review papers into a Master's thesis. When explained that the problem has already been solved, and therefore not even publishable in Tier 3, they give you a blank stare - surely "publish = getting a well formatted print out" ?

[General Zod]

^ It would be superb if the second two years of undergrad were structured the way grad school is. It's shocking how many of our incoming grad students don't know how research works - or even know that the journals in a field have tiers of differing quality. This "review paper = research" mentality - which after all is what undergrad "papers" are - means that not only do undergrads not have the training to pursue graduate education - they don't even have the mindset to undergo the training.

For example - 1st year Master's students try to "extend" their undergrad senior review papers into a Master's thesis. When explained that the problem has already been solved, and therefore not even publishable in Tier 3, they give you a blank stare - surely "publish = getting a well formatted print out" ?

How is that going to help people who don't want to go past a bachelor's? For people like me a bachelor's is more than enough, and I'm not sure if I'll continue past my associate's.

[Eternal_Freedom]

My uni spent a lot of time setting up all it's anti-plagarism stuff. And it's very good, but it gives false positives annoyingly often.

For instance, my last assignment (I'm first year btw) was a 1500 word magazine-style article on the constellation Aquila. Having submitted it electronically I got a flat rejection half an hour later because it had picked up that one of my phrases was (it thought) copied from the Wikipedia article on Aquila. I went and argued with my lecturer about it, and managed to convince him that I'd never read that article and it was a coincidence (which it was)

But if I hadn't argued, I would have automatically failed the whole module. Which would have sucked big time

[Bottlestein]

How is that going to help people who don't want to go past a bachelor's? For people like me a bachelor's is more than enough, and I'm not sure if I'll continue past my associate's.

We should have a range of possible electives for juniors/seniors - elective options both for those who wish to continue to another degree and those who want to go directly into the workforce. There's actually enough people who can teach the "workforce" oriented courses - we actually drive them off to "teaching schools" and somehow insist that only people who do good research can teach juniors and seniors who, like you, want more practical training. There's quite a few adjunct professors and people who've joined academia from industry who'd jump at the chance.

[PainRack]

My uni spent a lot of time setting up all it's anti-plagarism stuff. And it's very good, but it gives false positives annoyingly often.

For instance, my last assignment (I'm first year btw) was a 1500 word magazine-style article on the constellation Aquila. Having submitted it electronically I got a flat rejection half an hour later because it had picked up that one of my phrases was (it thought) copied from the Wikipedia article on Aquila. I went and argued with my lecturer about it, and managed to convince him that I'd never read that article and it was a coincidence (which it was)

But if I hadn't argued, I would have automatically failed the whole module. Which would have sucked big time

I'm wondering just how common this problem is.......

I once had an assignment I submitted rejected as plagarism because apparently, the content and structure was too similar to some other online wiki/etc. My defence was, the content HAD to be the same because of the topic and the structural format was the most logical way of approaching the topic. I always just thought this was a freak and one off nature but reading what you posted.......

[CaptainChewbacca]

On a related note, I started answering questions for ChaCha today. Its a free online service that answers any question via text message. Probably about a third of what I get is poorly spelled homework problems.

[Eternal_Freedom]

"snip"

I'm wondering just how common this problem is.......

I once had an assignment I submitted rejected as plagarism because apparently, the content and structure was too similar to some other online wiki/etc. My defence was, the content HAD to be the same because of the topic and the structural format was the most logical way of approaching the topic. I always just thought this was a freak and one off nature but reading what you posted.......

My uni has been having quite a bit of trouble like this, the system they have is too sesnsitive. Like I said, it'll reject a whole essay as plagarised based on a single phrase.

Came up even more a problem with my friend Toby's essay though. He's on a military history course, and the software detected he'd apparently lifted a lot from battlestarwiki (the assignment was military structures in fiction, for some reason). What they hadn't realised was he was the one who'd written the article, and he'd used his assignment as a basis. Stupid program didn't check the dates modified

[ShadowDragon8685]

My uni has been having quite a bit of trouble like this, the system they have is too sesnsitive. Like I said, it'll reject a whole essay as plagarised based on a single phrase.

I understand that there are fields of detection where you want to err on the side of false positives - such as chemical explosives sniffing, for example - but why is your uni's system so bloody sensitive? What possible justification could there be for tuning it so damn high?

Came up even more a problem with my friend Toby's essay though. He's on a military history course, and the software detected he'd apparently lifted a lot from battlestarwiki (the assignment was military structures in fiction, for some reason). What they hadn't realised was he was the one who'd written the article, and he'd used his assignment as a basis. Stupid program didn't check the dates modified

I really hope he was able to prove to the prof that it was his wiki screen-name involved and that he'd written the wiki article after the assignment, not before? Please tell me they were sane enough to listen to him and override the computer.

[Eternal_Freedom]

He was able to prove it, because he showed the lecturer that the article had been created the day after the assignment deadline, which he'd met

The system is overly sensitive because they had loads of problems with plagarism, so they over-compensated. It's like being in school again,you're assumed to be desparate to cheat and you're just waiting for the chance

[ShadowDragon8685]

So they do, at least, have the leeway required to override the system if it comes back with a false positive. That's at least something, whew.

Still, it is kind of sad that so many people are desperate to cheat that they treat everyone like they're crooked.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It's not that people are desperate tocheat, it's that the perception (here) is that us students are lazy fuckers who spend all our time pissed and hence have to cheat to pass anything