Greece considers leaving Eurozone

[J]

And what would be the easiest way to make them live within their means?

Turn Greece into a European colony?

That...would be interesting...

No seriously, what are you saying here?

Stop handing them money and boot them from the Eurozone. They then have to get their country in order and live within their means since no one is handing them money anymore to enable their behavior.

[Thanas]

Stop handing them money and boot them from the Eurozone. They then have to get their country in order and live within their means since no one is handing them money anymore to enable their behavior.

Yessir, let us just tank Greece.

[J]

They will tank anyway unless the EU is willing to loan them increasing amounts of money on an indefinite basis.

Again, I point to Iceland. They're well along the path to stabilizing their economy at early 2000s levels about 3 years after they defaulted and flipped the finger at their UK and EU creditors.

Or you can keep complaining about their extravagant lifestyles which is directly enabled by the handouts you keep giving them. If you want to put a stop to it you'll need to go in there and run things for them or stop the bailouts and crash them.

[Thanas]

Or you can keep complaining about their extravagant lifestyles which is directly enabled by the handouts you keep giving them. If you want to put a stop to it you'll need to go in there and run things for them

We are pretty much doing this right now. However, you are delusional if you think we can simply decree things and pray the ignorant public does not protest.

[J]

We are pretty much doing this right now. However, you are delusional if you think we can simply decree things and pray the ignorant public does not protest.

Of course they'll protest. You'll just need to oppress them properly.

But speaking seriously, Greece has reached the point where there's no good solutions left. They lived beyond their means for too long and engaged in far too much fraud covering it up, now that they've been exposed it's time to pay the piper. They will have to have more austerity measures, the people will be quite upset and protest greatly, and in general it's going to be pretty unless the rest of Europe keeps giving them more & more free money. Somehow, I doubt the rest of Europe will happy with that arrangement for too long. That which cannot continue forever, won't.

[K. A. Pital]

Because the people of Greece are not happy with the way their government handled the "bailout"? Sure, popular unrest and those pesky unions marching in Athens may sound like no big deal (Glory to Sarkozy the Mob Crusher, everyone should do the same), but maybe it's bigger than it seems.

Screw them. They have one of the cushiest lifestyles in all the Eurozone, the comfiest retirement plans etc. on one of the smallest economie there is. I know you want to frame everything as a kind of class warfare, but this is not a thing like that. It is time the greeks start living according to their means, not hope for handouts from Germany.

Or are you actually arguing their livestyles are in any way justified by their economic performance?

I'm not seeing Greece being significantly out-of-order here. As for Greece having "the smallest economy", that's fucking bullshit that mindless talkheads on news channels repeat over and over, and their shit has tired me, oh it has. Greece has the economy about as large as Denmark, that staple of goodness, and a larger economy than Portugal (and the same population as Portugal, before you even start looking).

So no:
1) Greece doesn't have the "lowest" retirement age, neither the "cushiest" retirement plans in Europe.
2) Greece doesn't have the smallest economy in Europe, smallest economy in the EU or whatever, neither by per capita indicators nor by bulk size.

Once we got this out of the way, we can continue the discussion.

Somehow, I doubt the rest of Europe will happy with that arrangement for too long.

As if the rest of Europe wasn't living "beyond their means", as if the "rest of Europe" wasn't making their hungry banks give cheap loans to South and East Europe and now that the South and East are fucking defaulting after trying to magically save capitalism by taking on private company debts, as if the rest of Europe wasn't complicit in the whole affair.

Oh no. They were, and there was a $37 billion bank bailout by the Greek government, for a nation whose GDP is $318 billion - a good 12% of GDP bailout. Germany and Greece were in a typical ricardian deadlock as well (except on a higher level): Germany was selling advanced machinery to Greece in exchange for agricultural goods. Everyone knows that this sort of situation can't be good for a long time.

However, it wasn't Germany who financed Greece with cheap pre-crisis loans and thus was greatly complicit in the debacle. Those were France and Switzerland, these staples of goodness. Maybe Germany should direct their anger at the idiots (oh, wait they were doing profitable legal business before the crisis!) who gave out cheap loans to Greece, tanking their economy when loans stopped being cheap and serviceable with small payments.


Northern and Western Europe's holier-than-thou attitude needs some reminders just WHOSE banks were complicit in the debacle. And don't even get me started on the bailouts. The G8 made everyone eat the fucking bailouts in the name of the fucking G8. Yes, that includes Greece, whose government were idiots and made a 12% of GDP bailout of their fucking banks, and by extension of their fucking "industrialists" who were, indeed, borrowing beyond their means because the West provided cheap credit.

Let me remind everyone in this fucking thread that before the crisis the European Union collectively shat on their own debt criteria, turning a blind eye to excessive debt, whether private or government, in the name of "new economic growth", following America's lead. The debt criteria were not strictly enforced, and government bailouts - including the Greek one! - were cheered.

So nobody in Europe gets out scot free. Fuck that, fuck the whole system of lies that has been built to obscure the fact that everyone was fucking responsible for this mess. I can't believe I'm the only fucking person who thinks that the reasons are in events that happened before 2008, and the last two years are just Europe and the USA reaping what they sow.

[Thanas]

So no:
1) Greece doesn't have the "lowest" retirement age, neither the "cushiest" retirement plans in Europe.
2) Greece doesn't have the smallest economy in Europe, smallest economy in the EU or whatever, neither by per capita indicators nor by bulk size.

...did you just cite the very same statistics the Greeks have admitted to systematically falsifying over the last few decades?

The point is, that any statistic from the years before probably cannot be trusted.

Let me remind everyone in this fucking thread that before the crisis the European Union collectively shat on their own debt criteria, turning a blind eye to excessive debt, whether private or government, in the name of "new economic growth", following America's lead. The debt criteria were not strictly enforced, and government bailouts - including the Greek one! - were cheered.

Yes. So? How does this change anything with regards to the current problems? What do you think is a viable solution that somehow keeps the Greek standard of living high?

Let's face it, the cuts are necessary and it really is not the place of the greeks to complain about it.

[J]

As if the rest of Europe wasn't living "beyond their means", as if the "rest of Europe" wasn't making their hungry banks give cheap loans to South and East Europe and now that the South and East are fucking defaulting after trying to magically save capitalism by taking on private company debts, as if the rest of Europe wasn't complicit in the whole affair.

Well, you won't get any arguments from me about that particular point, I've been saying for a long time that Europe & their financials have gone "all in" with debts & financial gambling. I've presented this chart with the debt compositions of various European countries multiple times and this one has been posted as well.

Northern and Western Europe's holier-than-thou attitude needs some reminders just WHOSE banks were complicit in the debacle. And don't even get me started on the bailouts. The G8 made everyone eat the fucking bailouts in the name of the fucking G8. Yes, that includes Greece, whose government were idiots and made a 12% of GDP bailout of their fucking banks, and by extension of their fucking "industrialists" who were, indeed, borrowing beyond their means because the West provided cheap credit.

If you think about it, Greece, Ireland and now Portugal are being used in much the same way AIG was used by the Goldman-Sachs and JP Morgan team; the countries more or less serve as backdoor conduits to funnel money into Northern & Western European banks. There's money being taken from those bailed out countries which flows to the banks, plus money from France, Germany and others which is contributed to various European bailout funds which then gives the money to Greece et al, and from there it flows back to the accounts of Northern & Western European banks. It's basically a way to steal money from all of Europe and its citizens and give it to the chosen banks.

So nobody in Europe gets out scot free. Fuck that, fuck the whole system of lies that has been built to obscure the fact that everyone was fucking responsible for this mess. I can't believe I'm the only fucking person who thinks that the reasons are in events that happened before 2008, and the last two years are just Europe and the USA reaping what they sow.

For the record, I've said the same thing about economic events in North America, the roots of the problems go back decades and the key events which directly enabled and led to the current mess go back over a dozen years.

What do you think is a viable solution that somehow keeps the Greek standard of living high?

European Debt Jubilee.

[Crown]

...did you just cite the very same statistics the Greeks have admitted to systematically falsifying over the last few decades?

The point is, that any statistic from the years before probably cannot be trusted.

First of all, stop saying 'the Greeks'. It's like painting the entire population with the smear brush, saying 'Greece' is accurate in defining that of the politicians/policy makers/bankers but not necessarily the populous as a whole (I would have thought a German wouldn't need this to be pointed out to him).

Second, I'm aware that the Greek government has admitted to falsifying their accounts/budget, but I wasn't aware they were falsifying the minimum retirement age as well!!!! Holy crap, really? Or more seriously, if you have any evidence to contradict that which Stas posted, present it, otherwise accept that you just got schooled really hard.

[K. A. Pital]

...did you just cite the very same statistics the Greeks have admitted to systematically falsifying over the last few decades?

Isn't the loan statistic and the retirement age statistic pretty much public and can't be lied about? The loans especially; it's not as the French and Swiss banks weren't keeping their books correct. Greek GDP stats are from fucking 2010. As are Portugals and Denmark's.

Yes. So? How does this change anything with regards to the current problems? What do you think is a viable solution that somehow keeps the Greek standard of living high? Let's face it, the cuts are necessary and it really is not the place of the greeks to complain about it.

Who are the Greeks to you - the bureaucrats in their government, the "businessmen" who took cheap loans, and the bankers who used the corrupt Greek government to get a $37 billion bailout, or the workers, especially the ones not in a position to decide anything? Who must suffer? Maybe Greece had taxes a bit too low - I saw their taxes were far lower than Germany's.

Oh, it's the workers who must now suffer because their masters cooked the books. It's the "Greeks" who are at fault for their government agreeing to write down $37 billion of bank debt and tank their own budget! Yessir, they had a referenda for that bailout, and for whatever happened since. Or maybe not. And it's them who kept taxes lower than in Germany while keeping retirement age low too, creating a disparity in tax collections and spending - not their government, which they're protesting against, with the blind eye of Europe's Saurons turned towards this! But sure, let's paint them with a broad brush, like they did with the French in the Sarkozy versus "the mob" (instead of We The People, heh) thread.

And before you get to collective responsibility for voting someone in power, let me remind you that after the bailouts the Greek government collapsed (IIRC, if I'm wrong someone correct me) and a new one was elected which was supposed to solve problems that the people cared about. But it didn't. The Greek voters are powerless while the government screws them over. This is why they protest so often and protest massively.

You support what the Greek government is doing to its PEOPLE, whilst it was the Greek government in collusion with bankers from all over Europe who is at fault. Excellent. And you were schooling me about the "responsibility" of Western governments. *laughs*

It's basically a way to steal money from all of Europe and its citizens and give it to the chosen banks.

Quite so. I'm amazed that people can say the government of Greece broke the Maastricht, etc. other criteria, but at the same time think that their massive bailout of banks was okay. It's either this or that. You can't say "yes to bailouts" unless you fully understand where this road goes. It goes to giving money from entire nations to a select few who gambled and lost already; it's treating the alcoholic with vodka. It's crazy. Oh, and thanks for the graphs. I think there's much to investigate there.

If Thanas thinks the "Greeks" have to suffer, maybe the same should be done with Portugal. After all, their economy is small, they are poor (by standards of the Europe Big Three, Germany France Britain) and their debts don't look good. Why not?

[someone_else]

I always had the gut feeling that Eurozone is a wagon you simply cannot leave.
Doing so nukes your economy, and the other nations still there will heavily feel the loss, since there are economic ties.
If Greece leaves Eurozone it is then forced to default in less than one year, then you have loads of banks and investors in Europe (that bought their debts) that go to hell, and that tends to be bad for us.

Eurozone is pretty fun, it basically forces a three-musketeer attitude for economical problems.
Even if Greece cooked books and did shit, has to be saved, in any way.

Don't delude yourself, none ever gave a fuck about their people, it's the fact we have bought their debts and other random economic stuff that forces us to save it.

What is worrying is that to "save" Greece they are doing some pretty dangerous and nonsense shit.
To really save it you have to go there and boot out the ones responsible and place better people in their place, and keep an eye on such people to be sure they are doing what they promised you. That's basically an invasion with deportation (violent or not). You have to interfer heavily with another nation's internal affairs, and obviously go against the will of the same kind of fuckers that are in your own country (mainly the banks), that don't want to be the next to suffer this treatment.
Also, this assumes that the people in charge of your own nation are better than the ones in Greece. With Italy (currently) isn't the case.
So we just throw money at them and hope they fix themselves.
Kinda like praying for rain, but anyway...

[Thanas]

...did you just cite the very same statistics the Greeks have admitted to systematically falsifying over the last few decades?

The point is, that any statistic from the years before probably cannot be trusted.

First of all, stop saying 'the Greeks'. It's like painting the entire population with the smear brush, saying 'Greece' is accurate in defining that of the politicians/policy makers/bankers but not necessarily the populous as a whole (I would have thought a German wouldn't need this to be pointed out to him).

I was unaware that bankers now comprise national leadership, but if it bothers you, I will do as you ask.

Isn't the loan statistic and the retirement age statistic pretty much public and can't be lied about? The loans especially; it's not as the French and Swiss banks weren't keeping their books correct. Greek GDP stats are from fucking 2010. As are Portugals and Denmark's.

And yet, somehow they managed to also accumulate much more debt over the years than they were supposed to. Where was the correct loan statistic then? Quite frankly, this is too close, especially considering new data most likely has not impacted that much. I for one believe that data from this year might be the most accurate.

Who are the Greeks to you - the bureaucrats in their government, the "businessmen" who took cheap loans, and the bankers who used the corrupt Greek government to get a $37 billion bailout, or the workers, especially the ones not in a position to decide anything? Who must suffer? Maybe Greece had taxes a bit too low - I saw their taxes were far lower than Germany's.

How about the fact that over 24% of the workforce is employed in an inefficient bureaucracy, of which 12% mainly collect paychecks for little to no work? Or all the other inefficiencies and ouright fraud described in this article. Source, in German, but you can read German, soo....

Yes, taxes are too low as well.

Oh, it's the workers who must now suffer because their masters cooked the books. It's the "Greeks" who are at fault for their government agreeing to write down $37 billion of bank debt and tank their own budget! Yessir, they had a referenda for that bailout, and for whatever happened since. Or maybe not. And it's them who kept taxes lower than in Germany while keeping retirement age low too, creating a disparity in tax collections and spending - not their government, which they're protesting against, with the blind eye of Europe's Saurons turned towards this!

Oh yes, sure. I am certain the various elections have had nothign to do with it. Tell me, when was the last time somebody got elected in Greece who promoted fiscal responsibility and living within the means?

You support what the Greek government is doing to its PEOPLE, whilst it was the Greek government in collusion with bankers from all over Europe who is at fault. Excellent. And you were schooling me about the "responsibility" of Western governments. *laughs*

Yes, sir, let us all just continue with that and give no responsibility at all to the Greek populace which I am sure never voted for any of the politicians who perpetrated that fraud. According to the articles, it is pretty much an open secret that buraucrats etc. were notoriously lazy and corrupt, yet *somehow* nobody cared much about that until they ran out of money.

For the record: I am certain that a lot of the measures are impacting not only the people responsible but also the others. However, what is your problem with Europe in this? Germany explicitly said it wanted to go after bankers profiting from this and from the system before and what happened? Cue the Government protesting - Source. What is Europe to do here, in your opinion? Continue paying for all perpetuity? What has Greece done to deserve that?

If Thanas thinks the "Greeks" have to suffer, maybe the same should be done with Portugal. After all, their economy is small, they are poor (by standards of the Europe Big Three, Germany France Britain) and their debts don't look good. Why not?

Apparently the Portugese agree, considering their austerity package is actually harsher than the Greek one is.

I too would like if we would have some giant bureaucracy that is super-efficient at weeding out the bad eggs and only punishing them. However, how is Europe supposed to enforce that?

[Crown]

I was unaware that bankers now comprise national leadership, but if it bothers you, I will do as you ask.

And in which wonderful world do you live in where the predominately wealthy don't have a disproportionate access to the corridors of power than the citizenry?

How about the fact that over 24% of the workforce is employed in an inefficient bureaucracy, of which 12% mainly collect paychecks for little to no work? Or all the other inefficiencies and ouright fraud described in this article. Source, in German, but you can read German, soo....

Yes, taxes are too low as well.

I'm confused. Do you actually mean that 76% of the workforce is actually not employed in an inefficient bureaucracy, and a further 21% of the workforce which actually in employed in an inefficient bureaucracy actually do work? OUTRAGE! OUTRAGE I say!

(more on this later)

Oh yes, sure. I am certain the various elections have had nothign to do with it. Tell me, when was the last time somebody got elected in Greece who promoted fiscal responsibility and living within the means?

First, just as soon as you tell us when the last time a candidate ran on that platform. And second, one needs to familiarise themselves with the principals of the 21st Century philosopher George Carlin on 'The Freedom of Choice'

(more on this later)

Yes, sir, let us all just continue with that and give no responsibility at all to the Greek populace which I am sure never voted for any of the politicians who perpetrated that fraud. According to the articles, it is pretty much an open secret that buraucrats etc. were notoriously lazy and corrupt, yet *somehow* nobody cared much about that until they ran out of money.

Are you insane? They have journalists, talkshows, etc etc exposing corrupt bureaucrats for years in Greece - hell they even televise sting operations with undercover reporters. In fact the previous ND government (the one that went to town on these loans) ran on a platform of 'cleaning up the system' and 'putting an end to nepotism' and (wait for it) 'transparency'. Look how well THAT turned out!

And now for the 'later':

Greece is a basketcase. It really is. You have to live there to get any appreciation of how truly fucked up the bureaucracy is to understand that simply being able to go about your daily life and staying 'within the rules' as any kind of small business owner is a struggle. Anecdotal evidence and opinions are much like assholes, everyone's got one and they usually stink but bear with me. My uncles run a medium sized construction company. They build apartment blocks (5 - 7 stories high), they also work with the local council in roads and other infrastructure.

They also own a cement factory (whatever the correct terminology is), and I remember when I was talking about their business with one of my uncles and he said in an off hand remark; that it would take just as much paperwork to file for a nuclear power plant as it does for what they run. Now obviously this is hyperbole, but the point is I wouldn't not be shocked if it was actually true. THAT is how fucked up the bureaucracy is.

But when you actually don't have a choice, you can't affect a change.

[K. A. Pital]

And yet, somehow they managed to also accumulate much more debt over the years than they were supposed to. Where was the correct loan statistic then? Quite frankly, this is too close, especially considering new data most likely has not impacted that much. I for one believe that data from this year might be the most accurate.

Note that none of my statistics involved debt. I merely noted that the Greeks did not have the smallest economy in Europe (with 2010 figures) and their retirement age is a public figure which can't be falsified. What could have been falsified is the government's revenues and expenses. Wait, Greek government commited a fraud? Greek banks commited a fraud? Maybe then the Greeks aren't at fault, because they weren't privvy to the dealings of the oligarchy behind closed doors, you know? On the other hand, see below.

How about the fact that over 24% of the workforce is employed in an inefficient bureaucracy, of which 12% mainly collect paychecks for little to no work?

This means that you have to screw the entire state sector jobs and all the workers of Greece with non-targeted "austerity measures" that impact all workers of the state sector indiscriminately or use pension reforms which are even worse, because those impact all workers indiscriminately, end of line/ That's too bad, but the Greek public sector workforce is around a third of the population, which is more than the 24% or 12% of the workforce that could be described as "inefficient". Besides, who checked the other, more wealthy nations for efficiency of their employment?

According to the articles, it is pretty much an open secret that buraucrats etc. were notoriously lazy and corrupt, yet *somehow* nobody cared much about that until they ran out of money.

Because surely the Greek democracy is a perfect mechanism which elects people that don't fuck over their subjects. And this of course makes their subjects fully responsible for everything that happened. I could support this position, I mean, I consider the First World nations' populations responsible for, say, the Iraq war (the ones that took part in the invasion). But in this case many more nations, not just Greece, are complicit in this and their population should be punished as well. France, for example. Their banks were giving loans to Greece. Are the French not responsible for that? If so, when does the responsibility of private entities end, where does the responsibility of governments end and where stars the responsibility of everyone? It is not a secret that the richest did not suffer from the crisis; it is the poorer sections of society who suffer now due to "austerity programs". Is it honest? I believe no. Maybe we should enforce a superprogressive tax to replenish some of those losses.

I too would like if we would have some giant bureaucracy that is super-efficient at weeding out the bad eggs and only punishing them. However, how is Europe supposed to enforce that?

Hmm. Here's a thought - maybe if you don't have a common government, or your common government is powerless to enforce anything, maybe you shouldn't have a common currency. Yeah, that means European Union would cease to exist as an economic union, but it is not really clear whether this is beneficial or counterbeneficial. Visaless travel can be installed without the EU; and that's pretty much the largest benefit. There were studies which displayed that the Greek economy did not gain much for their EU membership (well... now they did; they got the bailout, wherein Europe's nations are covering their government's debts).