Flushing the toilet is now cause for a search

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SVPD
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Re: Flushing the toilet is now cause for a search

Post by SVPD »

TheHammer wrote: Doing further reading, its entirely possible the cop was intending to Taze Grant and somehow mistook his gun for his tazer. I've seen others say that the weight and location of each should have told him otherwise, but you never know.
That's actually almost certainly what happened. The people saying "well, he should have known by weight and feel" are people who just assume that because they weigh and feel differently in the comfort of the living room they're posting from, that these facts necessarily present themselves to the brain in the middle of a tense situation. That does not excuse shooting him, because quite frankly, there IS no excuse for shooting a person when you meant to TASER them, but it certainly does explain why it's manslaughter instead of murder.

As to the seizure of evidence:

The problem with the complaint that seizure of evidence looks bad is that it looks bad only if you're assuming the police are corrupt to begin with. That could be because people either are ignorant of the laws regarding evidence, or simply because they insist on interpreting anything the police do in the worst possible light.

The job of the police is to investigate crimes and arrest criminals. Sometimes, this includes other police officers. Sometimes, there are problems because of that, wherein certain police officers try to to "cover for" their buddy who has done something wrong.

Distrust of the police based on the knowledge that this sometimes happens is understandable. The problem arises, however, when that distrust is used as a reason why specific actions in a specific case are wrong without actual evidence of wrongdoing.

For one thing, there is no such thing as the police covering up "their" errors. If there's a coverup, it's of the error of specific individuals who are police officers, not of a mistake that somehow becomes the collective error of police as a whole, either of that agency or police in general. If a coverup occurs, similarly, it's by the officers doing the coverup, not by police in general or even by every officer in that agency.

Second, while police "brotherhood" and covering for each other make great cinema, TV, and even sensationalist news when they happen, very few police want to do this. No one wants to go down with a dirty cop when he gets caught, and some agencies have very publicly humiliating things they do to corrupt officers in addition to any criminal and administrative penalties. Customs and Border Protection posts your picture on their Trust Betrayed website with a detailed description of what you did. I know of one police department that melted down the guns, badges and handcuffs of some officers caught selling dope and which cut their pictures from Academy photos with scissors.

In any case, without actual evidence that the police are engaging in wrongdoing in a specific instance, assuming that they are doing so because of "distrust" based on "past incidents", and because of how it "looks bad" (which is based on that mistrust) is really.. well, it's bigotry. It's not really different than racial profiling; essentially it's assuming wrongdoing because people who are part of the same general group have done so in the past, but not based on any actual evidence at the present time. In fact, even if there is actual evidence of wrongdoing in a particular instance, the wrongdoing of other police officers at other points in the past isn't evidence any more than the fact that blacks have committed murder in the past is evidence that a specific black man committed a specific murder.

It's a ine and healthy thing in a free society for the public to question authority. However, when the question turns from "Why are you doing that?" into "Why would you do that if you weren't corrupt" without any other supporting facts, the problem is not with authority, the problem is with certain members of the public who cannot understand that evidence is needed for all accusations of wrongdoing
Shit like this is why I'm kind of glad it isn't legal to go around punching people in the crotch. You'd be able to track my movement from orbit from the sheer mass of idiots I'd leave lying on the ground clutching their privates in my wake. -- Mr. Coffee
Simon_Jester
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Re: Flushing the toilet is now cause for a search

Post by Simon_Jester »

SVPD, do you believe that there is a legitimate concern about the possibility of the police seizing evidence that would implicate them in misconduct?

Or is this, in your opinion, a non-issue.
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SVPD
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Re: Flushing the toilet is now cause for a search

Post by SVPD »

Simon_Jester wrote:SVPD, do you believe that there is a legitimate concern about the possibility of the police seizing evidence that would implicate them in misconduct?

Or is this, in your opinion, a non-issue.
That depends what you mean by legitimate concern.

If, by legitimate concern, you mean recognizing that it can happen, then yes, I agree it is a legitimate concern in the sense that one ought not to simply place blind trust in the honesty of all authority figures.

However, I do not think it is a legitimate concern that any specific police officer(s) will do this in any specific case without some articulable facts to point to; at least to the same level that an officer would need to establish reasonable suspicion. I also do not believe that anyone's inherent mistrust of the police inherently supports the articulable facts in establishing a legtimate reason for concern. Essentially, the concern can't be a reason for itself. That would be like a police officer saying "I had reasonable suspiion because this man was suspicious." Nor is collecting the evidence in and of itself suspicious; that is simply begging the question.

Your question contains the problem I pointed out earlier: Unless we are talking about an officer collecting evidence on his own alleged misconduct, the police are not collecting evidence of "their" misconduct. Misconduct by one police officer is not misconduct by all. It is possible some officers will cover for others, by the same token some officers will go out of their way to railroad another officer who has been accused, especially if they don't personally like him or his job performance. One of these scenarios gets far more play, however, in the news media and in popular culture than the other.

So, as a matter of social concern, it is legitimate. In any particular instance, it is a nonissue without specific facts to support a concern; facts which must be objective, not relying on the assumption of corrupt behavior in the first place to support them.

Without those facts, we have people refusing to give evidence to the people investigating the crime, which creates all sorts of new problems:
1) How will the evidence retain any value? Chain of custody is very important.
2) What is the compelling interest of the witness in retaining the evidence? (not just "my cell phone is expensive" that's the interest in the property; it should eventually be returned. I'm talking about their interest in holding onto evidence) How is the witness involved? Criminal cases are a matter between the accused and the state; the witness has no interest in the same way a disinterested party cannot file a lawsuit for a wrong that does not affect them. Obviously for victims this is different, but for the average witness just standing around taking cell phone video, why do they need to retain it if they are not affected by the supposed misconduct?
3) Assuming they do retain it, why should they be trusted any more than the police? They claim the police want to perform a coverup, but the police can just as easily claim they want to get attention for themselves and conduct a trial of public opinion on YouTube to deny the accused officer a fair trial - and exactly this is quite common; YouTube has oodles of videos that have been edited and had ignorant commentary injected wherein people confirm their own outrage and try to garner support from the uneducated.
4) The concern that the evidence would be altered is at least as great as it would be in police custody.

Frankly, I think the whole problem with the video thing is one of people simply thinking precisely what I said: They're going to post a cool video on YouTube and get a lot of attention, possibly by creating a stir over "police brutality" that may or may not really be the case if they're so inclined. Others are just trying to look cool on the internet. They are poorly educated about how criminal porcedure and investigations go, and so they're shocked when the police say "Hey, that's evidence!" Then, they jump to the conclusion it's corruption because now that cool video is going away, and it meshes nicely with sensationalistic journalism and pop culture TV and movie ideas about police corruption, which are rarely countered with stories about officers policing their own, and when they are, the stories focus on the guilty officers and not what was done to bring them to justice.
Shit like this is why I'm kind of glad it isn't legal to go around punching people in the crotch. You'd be able to track my movement from orbit from the sheer mass of idiots I'd leave lying on the ground clutching their privates in my wake. -- Mr. Coffee
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Re: Flushing the toilet is now cause for a search

Post by aieeegrunt »

Jesus Christ if somebody is so unable to handle a stressfull situation that they mistakenly draw their pistol instead of their tazer, and then proceed to fucking SHOOT somebody because they were unable to tell the difference between holding a pistol and holding a tazer, then they have no business being trusted with either in the first place.

Boy, it didn't take long for the bullshit apologism to start. Some poor marine survives two tours in Iraq, but boy he sure didn't survive America Fuck Ya paramilitary police bullshit. Bad enough that they appear to have carte blanche to bust down doors, wrong addresses, shoot pets in neighbouring yards, but now apparently they have authority to do so across entire neighbourhoods.

Once again I thank God I was born Canadian, and that I turned down all those enticing job offers from down south. Apparently my subconscious didn't want to risk getting my ass shot for any reason, or really none at all.
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Re: Flushing the toilet is now cause for a search

Post by Terralthra »

aieeegrunt wrote:Jesus Christ if somebody is so unable to handle a stressfull situation that they mistakenly draw their pistol instead of their tazer, and then proceed to fucking SHOOT somebody because they were unable to tell the difference between holding a pistol and holding a tazer, then they have no business being trusted with either in the first place.

Boy, it didn't take long for the bullshit apologism to start. Some poor marine survives two tours in Iraq, but boy he sure didn't survive America Fuck Ya paramilitary police bullshit. Bad enough that they appear to have carte blanche to bust down doors, wrong addresses, shoot pets in neighbouring yards, but now apparently they have authority to do so across entire neighbourhoods.

Once again I thank God I was born Canadian, and that I turned down all those enticing job offers from down south. Apparently my subconscious didn't want to risk getting my ass shot for any reason, or really none at all.
Pretty sure you posted this in the wrong thread. Nice rant though! You're sure to earn some anti-'Murrica points.
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Kamakazie Sith
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Re: Flushing the toilet is now cause for a search

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

aieeegrunt wrote:Jesus Christ if somebody is so unable to handle a stressfull situation that they mistakenly draw their pistol instead of their tazer, and then proceed to fucking SHOOT somebody because they were unable to tell the difference between holding a pistol and holding a tazer, then they have no business being trusted with either in the first place.
That's an obvious conclusion. The only reason I can see you making this observation is because you feel that the training provided by BART was not adequate enough to avoid such a situation. That could be true but without information on how their training is conducted we have no way of knowing if BART training is not adequate or that this one performed to standard in training and that training is consistent with what is expected to operate a taser and firearm in a police function.
Boy, it didn't take long for the bullshit apologism to start. Some poor marine survives two tours in Iraq, but boy he sure didn't survive America Fuck Ya paramilitary police bullshit. Bad enough that they appear to have carte blanche to bust down doors, wrong addresses, shoot pets in neighbouring yards, but now apparently they have authority to do so across entire neighbourhoods.

Once again I thank God I was born Canadian, and that I turned down all those enticing job offers from down south. Apparently my subconscious didn't want to risk getting my ass shot for any reason, or really none at all.
Bullshit? What part about the actual raid was bullshit? You do realize that in the young Marine case it isn't the raid itself that is questionable but the fact that medical wasn't allowed in. A valid reason has been given for that. If you feel it isn't valid then please post some more detail as to why.

Bottomline - Don't create posts that are argumentative but fail to actually make an arguments.
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Re: Flushing the toilet is now cause for a search

Post by aieeegrunt »

How much training does it take to distinguish between holding two very different objects? Sure this wasn't a RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH! temper tantrum excacerbated by the knowledge that it's pretty easy for them to literally get away with murder? You can argue all the legalize you want, the fact remains that police do NOT want anyone having an independant record of their activities screams coverup mentality to me. If they were in fact as lily pure as you are making them out to be, they'd be inviting it since this evidence would only make them look better.

I think a lot of the issues seen here probably trace back to what happens when you have any group of people with power and low accountability. If SWAT busting into the wrong house and shooting some guy resulted in murder convictions, you'd see a lot less of it happening. Add in the typical human tribal identity problems, testosterone/weapons brain poisoning, and it's no surprise some people run amok.

Hell, do they even have to pay for any property damage they cause?
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Re: Flushing the toilet is now cause for a search

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

aieeegrunt wrote:How much training does it take to distinguish between holding two very different objects? Sure this wasn't a RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH! temper tantrum excacerbated by the knowledge that it's pretty easy for them to literally get away with murder? You can argue all the legalize you want, the fact remains that police do NOT want anyone having an independant record of their activities screams coverup mentality to me. If they were in fact as lily pure as you are making them out to be, they'd be inviting it since this evidence would only make them look better.
Stress has different effects on people. During intense situations that generate high stress what seems easy to someone sitting in a safe place can be difficult when actually involved in that situation. As an experienced officer it seemed incredible that someone could mistake their firearm for their taser, however, the evidence that he did not intend to shoot Grant is compelling regardless of the validity of the taser excuse. The video captures the "oh shit" look on the BART officers face, and the friends of the victim also gave testimony that supported this. Furthermore, who in their right mind would murder someone face down being held down by other officers in plain view of dozens of witnesses with video cameras? Remember, even a police officer needs to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Also, I don't make them out to be "lily pure", you dishonest douche guzzler. That statement combined with your obvious ignorance of the finer details of the BART shooting again confirm that you're talking without doing any research. So, do us all a favor and shut the fuck up until you've done so.
I think a lot of the issues seen here probably trace back to what happens when you have any group of people with power and low accountability. If SWAT busting into the wrong house and shooting some guy resulted in murder convictions, you'd see a lot less of it happening. Add in the typical human tribal identity problems, testosterone/weapons brain poisoning, and it's no surprise some people run amok.
Well, a murder conviction would be difficult to prove in the case of them killing someone while raiding the wrong house as in the SWAT officers executing the warrant they would be acting under good faith that it was accurate. Though I do agree that someone should be held accountable, especially if someone dies that didn't have to.
Hell, do they even have to pay for any property damage they cause?
Most likely, but I can't really speak for every department across the country. Many departments do pay for the damaged they cause and in one particular case a SWAT team took fire from the home owner of a house they were mistaken raiding. Because it was a mistake they dropped charges against that man despite that he hit two officers with shotgun blasts.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/ ... 016335.php

The problem you face is that the statutes for crimes a specifically laid out to address crimes committed by individuals. When you have a SWAT team assisting say the NARC unit on a warrant that the NARC unit wrote you can't charge the guys on the team for a crime because no criminal statute is written in such a way. Though you might be able to charge the person that wrote the warrant with criminal negligence if the mistake was so unreasonable like it was in the case of the link I provided.
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