Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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From [url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110530/ts ... icsnuclear[Yahoo.com[/url]
ERLIN (AFP) – Germany on Monday announced plans to become the first major industrialised power to shut down all its nuclear plants in the wake of the disaster in Japan, with a phase-out due to be wrapped up by 2022.

Environment Minister Norbert Roettgen announced the decision by the centre-right coalition, which was prompted by the crisis at Japan's Fukushima plant, in the early hours of Monday morning, describing it as "irreversible".

"After long consultations, there is now an agreement by the coalition to end nuclear energy," he told reporters after seven hours of negotiations into the small hours at Chancellor Angela Merkel's offices.

"This decision is consistent, decisive and clear."

Germany has 17 nuclear reactors on its territory, eight of which are currently off the electricity grid.
Seven of those offline are the country's oldest nuclear reactors, which the federal government shut down for three months pending a safety probe after the Japanese atomic emergency at Fukushima that began in March.

The eighth is the Kruemmel plant, in northern Germany, which has been mothballed for years because of technical problems.
Monday's decision made Germany the first major industrial power to announce plans to give up atomic energy entirely.

But it also means that the country will have to find the 22 percent of its electricity needs currently covered by nuclear reactors from another source.
Roettgen insisted there was no danger of blackouts.

"We assure that the electricity supply will be ensured at all times and for all users," he pledged, but did not provide details.

Already Friday, the environment ministers from all 16 German regional states had called for the temporary order on the seven plants to be made permanent.
Roettgen said Monday that none of the eight reactors offline would be reactivated. Six further reactors would be shut down by the end of 2021 and the three most modern would cease operation by the end of 2022.

Monday's decision is effectively a return to the timetable set by the previous Social Democrat-Green coalition government a decade ago.
And it is a humbling U-turn for Merkel, who at the end of 2010 decided to extend the lifetime of Germany's 17 reactors by an average of 12 years, which would have kept them open until the mid-2030s.

That decision was unpopular in Germany even before the earthquake and tsunami in March that severely damaged the Fukushima nuclear facility in Japan, prompting Merkel's review of nuclear policy.

Her zig-zagging on what has been a highly emotive issue in the country since the 1970s has cost her since at the ballot box.
Merkel herself has blamed the Fukushima nuclear disaster for recent defeats in state elections.

In the latest, on May 23, the anti-nuclear Greens pushed her conservative party into third place in a vote in the northern state of Bremen, the first time they had scored more votes than the conservatives in a regional or federal election.

The late-night wrangling in Merkel's fractious team saw the pro-business Free Democrats (FDP) arguing against a fixed end date for nuclear power, and to maintain two reserve reactors in case of energy shortages.

FDP sources said there would be a contingency plan with one reactor but did not provide details.
Meanwhile the Christian Social Union, the Bavarian sister party of Merkel's Christian Democrats, fought for an exit within 10 years.

Some coalition members had called for a built-in review clause which could have seen the decision revisited, but this was thrown out in the final round of negotiations.
Roettgen said the government had largely followed the recommendations of an "ethics panel" appointed by Merkel after the Fukushima disaster, which called for an end to nuclear power in Germany within a decade.

Can I just say there is NO mention at all of what they plan to replace the Nuclear plants... Oh no, NO Idea about what to do excep OMG NO NUKES NO NUKES!
Well congrats you damn dirty Hippies! Yet another modern nation is going to get fcked over when Peak Oil hits because of you.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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This is really getting out of control. Why the fuck didn't anyone pledge to stop using oil after the BP spill? At least that would have been a move in the right direction. It's like people are set and bound to be reactionary idiots.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Yahoo News wrote:Monday's decision made Germany the first major industrial power to announce plans to give up atomic energy entirely.
Does Italy not count? They shut down their nuclear plants back in 1987-88.

I suspect that Germany will end up in the same position that Italy is in now: Europe's largest energy importer (including electricity). They'll end up relying heavily on imported natural gas, the coal plants they have, and imported electricity in general, barring some major breakthroughs in solar/wind/etc. That's good news for the countries that will be selling them the power and gas (France and Russia?).
Dillon wrote:This is really getting out of control. Why the fuck didn't anyone pledge to stop using oil after the BP spill? At least that would have been a move in the right direction. It's like people are set and bound to be reactionary idiots.
Germany has had a strong anti-nuclear movement since the 1980s at the very least, and most Germans polled were in opposition to the plants. I don't know why that's the case.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Guardsman Bass wrote:
Yahoo News wrote:Monday's decision made Germany the first major industrial power to announce plans to give up atomic energy entirely.
Does Italy not count? They shut down their nuclear plants back in 1987-88.

I suspect that Germany will end up in the same position that Italy is in now: Europe's largest energy importer (including electricity). They'll end up relying heavily on imported natural gas, the coal plants they have, and imported electricity in general, barring some major breakthroughs in solar/wind/etc. That's good news for the countries that will be selling them the power and gas (France and Russia?).
Dillon wrote:This is really getting out of control. Why the fuck didn't anyone pledge to stop using oil after the BP spill? At least that would have been a move in the right direction. It's like people are set and bound to be reactionary idiots.
Germany has had a strong anti-nuclear movement since the 1980s at the very least, and most Germans polled were in opposition to the plants. I don't know why that's the case.
Chernobyl, I would guess? I'm not all that familiar with German culture. It really befuddles me that people can have short attention spans, so that they can look on Chernobyl in horror while ignoring the fact that continued oil usage is slowly ruining our fucking atmosphere. Goddamned uninformed do-gooders.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Stopping the use of nuclear power doesn't mean the E.U. is going to be more lenient with regards to carbon emissions.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

Post by Korgeta »

Big surprise, if it was a plan to replace older models with more modern ones then that would be understandable, but to shut down all nuclear energy? All that will do is make the cost of oil and gas rise along with possible other environmental taxations coming into effect (like the carbon tax Australia are planning?) Unless there is already one in Germany. Still I think its a bad idea but if its what the majority of germans want then its their choice.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Dillon wrote:This is really getting out of control. Why the fuck didn't anyone pledge to stop using oil after the BP spill? At least that would have been a move in the right direction. It's like people are set and bound to be reactionary idiots.
Yeah most excellent point.

And

Why does not anyone pledge to phase out all coal powerplans each time dozens of miners ?

Or propose to make all roads car free because tens of thousands die in road accidents worldwide each year ?

Somehow the chance of even ONE PERSON dying in a nuclear accident is worth dooming the lives of billions in the long term. It's like nuclear power is chaos of Warhammer 40000, it will not kill you you but damn your soul to eternal torment !
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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I think that the attitude of Germany toward nuclear power is also partly related to the fact that the country was planned to be the prime playground for the great nuclear football party the East and the West were planning to throw.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Rabid wrote:I think that the attitude of Germany toward nuclear power is also partly related to the fact that the country was planned to be the prime playground for the great nuclear football party the East and the West were planning to throw.
How much space does France have left for building nuclear power plants?

I suppose that those German and Swiss technicians could move to Asia or the Middle East, where they aren't that squeamish.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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How much space do we have left ? Well, I don't know, but I suppose we could build some new reactors on our coasts or next to some of our major river. Frankly, I have no idea.

Those "technicians" could migrate to Brazil, China, the United Arab Emirates or India, for all I know. There's still plenty of room for growth right now in this particular industry, just not in already developed countries. But I doubt that they (the nuclear technicians) would want to migrate to some second/thid-world shithole (their hypothetical perception, not mine). After all, they are still competent engineer - for people with such skills, reconversion is always a possibility in Swiss, Germany, or some neigbhouring european country, or even the United States, for that matter.

It's more the lowly technicians, those who maintain the machinery on a day-to-day basis which will suffer the most from the planned end of their industry :

During the 11+ years that the "shutdown" will take, there will be less and less of them, as the old ones reach retirement age or decide to change carrier and no young ones will want to take such a dead-end job, which will put an even greater stress on the remaining ones, which will encourage the authority to recruit inexperienced people by interim (as it is already the case in France), which will increase the risk of things malfunctionning, maybe terribly so... It is a vicious circle the so-called "ecologist" doesn't seem to take conscience of or tend to overlook with unfounded optimism.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Pelranius wrote:How much space does France have left for building nuclear power plants?
Considering that they own 1/3 of Italy's debt, they have Italy.
As a side note, 12 june in italy there was a referendum about banning nuclear power again (the government wanted to build new nuclear plants paying a french company after france bough 1/3 of our debts), but that joker decided to remove the law that referendum was about, with the clear intent (as stated in interviews when he spoke to sarkozy) of waiting the scare about fukushima cools down.

While it sounds good on principle, it is very wrong if you know a little about Italy's current situation.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Crossroads Inc. wrote: Can I just say there is NO mention at all of what they plan to replace the Nuclear plants... Oh no, NO Idea about what to do excep OMG NO NUKES NO NUKES!
Well congrats you damn dirty Hippies! Yet another modern nation is going to get fcked over when Peak Oil hits because of you.
:lol: Wow, this is just to good to not quote it. :banghead:

Well, its a great achievement for Germany, but now the Greens have to show they can do politics without such a hugely emotional issue to make hay out of.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Pelranius wrote:
Rabid wrote:I think that the attitude of Germany toward nuclear power is also partly related to the fact that the country was planned to be the prime playground for the great nuclear football party the East and the West were planning to throw.
How much space does France have left for building nuclear power plants?

I suppose that those German and Swiss technicians could move to Asia or the Middle East, where they aren't that squeamish.
I am pretty sure some German technicians sold a lot of their expertise to the Chinese and South Africa in regards to pebble bed reactors. I am not sure if they moved there permanently, but I remember reading that they worked in quite close concert with the Chinese scientists to improve designs etc, so I am assuming they must have lived overseas at least for brief periods where their knowledge was called upon.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Crossroads Inc. wrote:Can I just say there is NO mention at all of what they plan to replace the Nuclear plants... Oh no, NO Idea about what to do excep OMG NO NUKES NO NUKES!
Well congrats you damn dirty Hippies! Yet another modern nation is going to get fcked over when Peak Oil hits because of you.
So because the article you chose did not mention the plans, that must mean there are none?

For the record, the plan is to have some of the nukes in a "reserve" status, so that in the worst case they can be reactivated - if all plans for replacing their energy production fails. The plans for replacing their energy in the short and medium term is to build a few more conventional power plants (or rather, continue to build those new ones).
The focus of this meeting was mostly on the question of nuclear energy - the other things had already been decided last year, with further revision still pending.

One other thing, all this does is reverse the decision made last year to lengthen the run-time of nuclear power plants. It had been previously planned (in 2001) to abandon nuclear power by 2022. The current government moved that time back by roughly a decade. They are now reversing that decision after having been blasted to bits in several elections since Fukushima.
Dillon wrote:This is really getting out of control. Why the fuck didn't anyone pledge to stop using oil after the BP spill? At least that would have been a move in the right direction. It's like people are set and bound to be reactionary idiots.
Lucky you - the plan is to replace all conventional power plants with renewables in the medium and long-term. So that decision is already made.
Guardsman Bass wrote:I suspect that Germany will end up in the same position that Italy is in now: Europe's largest energy importer (including electricity). They'll end up relying heavily on imported natural gas, the coal plants they have, and imported electricity in general, barring some major breakthroughs in solar/wind/etc. That's good news for the countries that will be selling them the power and gas (France and Russia?).
Germany has had a surplus of power generation the last few years. Even with shutting down 8 nuclear power plants, we still produce more power than we need. Even with shutting down 8 nuclear power plants, we still have more conventional power available than is needed. However, the reserve power generation available is a lot less, which is why they decided to continue the construction of several new conventional plants (and possibly run one nuclear power plant in the worst case). Just to be safe.
Germany has had a strong anti-nuclear movement since the 1980s at the very least, and most Germans polled were in opposition to the plants. I don't know why that's the case.
Chernobyl. Together with the ecology movement and anti-nuclear weapons/peace movement. Tschernobyl moved those sentiments from the fringe into the mainstream. Fukushima has moved that sentiment from the mainstream to the dominant position.
Dillon wrote:Chernobyl, I would guess? I'm not all that familiar with German culture. It really befuddles me that people can have short attention spans, so that they can look on Chernobyl in horror while ignoring the fact that continued oil usage is slowly ruining our fucking atmosphere. Goddamned uninformed do-gooders.
Yes, its not like Germany is planning to continue to strongly grow its renewable power generation, lower its CO2 output by at least 40% and its energy consumption by 10% by 2020 in comparison to 1990 - with large parts of the political and social sphere demanding even higher goals.
Zed wrote:Stopping the use of nuclear power doesn't mean the E.U. is going to be more lenient with regards to carbon emissions.
And Germany isn't going to abandon them.
Korgeta wrote:Big surprise, if it was a plan to replace older models with more modern ones then that would be understandable, but to shut down all nuclear energy? All that will do is make the cost of oil and gas rise along with possible other environmental taxations coming into effect (like the carbon tax Australia are planning?) Unless there is already one in Germany. Still I think its a bad idea but if its what the majority of germans want then its their choice.
There already is a CO2 certificate trading scheme in Europe.

Overall, its quite nice to see so much concern for another country. I just find it interesting that it seems completely impossible in your perception that an industrialized country could actually use its expertise in order to make an energy transition. No, it has to be only idiotic do-gooders with no sense of reality who could contemplate something like that.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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What I want to know is that, in all of this Hysteria, why no one in any Nation has had the Balls to say the following...

"The Nuclear Reactor in Japan got hit by a 9+ Earthquake that lasted over five minuts. It THEN got hit by the largest Tsunami in recent history. It THEN survived several large explosions and fire.

If after ALL that we only got the radiation leaks that we got, it should be considered a triumph of the saftey of Nuclear power, and not a condemnation."


As for Germamy, I heared this morning they are planning on replacing much of the nuclear power with wind solar and gas. Which will really many billlions spent into gas burning plants, which still produce huge amounts of CO2.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Actually, I said something very much like that (but in german) ~7 hours ago. Maybe you should stop making an as out of yourself and take the time to learn a little bit about the things you are talking about.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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mr friendly guy wrote:I am pretty sure some German technicians sold a lot of their expertise to the Chinese and South Africa in regards to pebble bed reactors. I am not sure if they moved there permanently, but I remember reading that they worked in quite close concert with the Chinese scientists to improve designs etc, so I am assuming they must have lived overseas at least for brief periods where their knowledge was called upon.
We are still designing nuclear reactors, primarily through holding companies these days.

That said, with the news that Fukushima is still not under control, that now another reactor block there is failing etc. the political risk got too great. Especially considering that some of the oldest reactors are also directly near our major centers of industry and our seaports. Seriously, if one of our oldest reactors malfunctions, we can kiss our entire export industry goodbye. And that thing was not even built to withstand a sports plane.

So before certain idiots go all "RAR GERMANY SO STUPID ZOMG", take a good look at the risks involved for the entire country here.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Being super-dogmatically anti-nuclear power is now equally annoying to me as the "OMG!! GREEN HIPPIES!!11!" crowd.
I might not believe a lot our esteemed leadership is doing, but I have at least faith in the plethora of scientific knowledge behind them. It might not be the solution holding majority on this forum but it is fare from the end of the world scare some make it out to be...
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

Post by Sarevok »

Thanas wrote:
We are still designing nuclear reactors, primarily through holding companies these days.

That said, with the news that Fukushima is still not under control, that now another reactor block there is failing etc. the political risk got too great. Especially considering that some of the oldest reactors are also directly near our major centers of industry and our seaports. Seriously, if one of our oldest reactors malfunctions, we can kiss our entire export industry goodbye. And that thing was not even built to withstand a sports plane.

So before certain idiots go all "RAR GERMANY SO STUPID ZOMG", take a good look at the risks involved for the entire country here.
But Thanas your country is not merely retiring old nuclear reactors but rather abandoning nuclear power as a whole. I am sure are as an academic you are more than aware about the state of fossil fuels and especially oil. Germany is one of the biggest industrialized nations in the world. What alternatives are there that can supply Germany with it's needs 30-40 years from now ?
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Why don't you just replace your old, risky nuke plants with modern ones? I mean, public opinion aside.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

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Sarevok wrote:But Thanas your country is not merely retiring old nuclear reactors but rather abandoning nuclear power as a whole. I am sure are as an academic you are more than aware about the state of fossil fuels and especially oil. Germany is one of the biggest industrialized nations in the world. What alternatives are there that can supply Germany with it's needs 30-40 years from now ?

Let us look at the actual facts, shall we?

- We are currently a net exporter of energy. The only energy we purchase we purchase because it is cheaper, not because we need it.
- We currently are having a secure production of 90 GW a day. We never use more than 80 GW a day, not even in winter. We are also already building power plants that will add another 11 GW a day at minimum. Even if you factor in retiring nuclear energy and shutting down older coal plants, that will still leave us with an additionnal 5 GW per day.
- This means that, even if we assume our industry does not get even more energy efficient - and it is slated to save another 10GW a day up until 2020 - our safety margin will still increase from 10 to 15 GW.
So the safety argument is nonexistent.

The only argument you can make is "cheap energy." Oh wait, you cannot even do that, because studies have consistently shown that nuclear energy costs the average German about double than conventional or renewable energy does. So nuclear energy in Germany is both unnecessary and econommically idiotic.

Hawkwings wrote:Why don't you just replace your old, risky nuke plants with modern ones? I mean, public opinion aside.

Where do you propose to build them in Germany? And besides, see above - they cost too much.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Skgoa wrote:Actually, I said something very much like that (but in german) ~7 hours ago. Maybe you should stop making an as out of yourself and take the time to learn a little bit about the things you are talking about.
Ok, I apoligize for not picking that up earlier. If you said something similar, I would hope then you could agree with me on the statment then and not assume I was mocking Germany specifically, but rather the anti nuclear hysteria currently sweeping many countries.

Also I would like to take back some of those stament if they seemed offensive. I don't wish to be lumped into "RAR GERMANY STUPID" but just the anti Nuclear going on right now.

Also You are correct that I was not fully informed, the numbers Thanas posted are surprising to me and I did not know that Germany already did not need that much extra power.

That said what is going on right now is still harmful world wide. Nations that WOULD benefit from investing in Nuclear may think twice now.

EDIT: the phrase "Damned Dirty Hippies" I would hope would be considered sarcasm to anyone on the bored who know my poltical leanings, though I should still have stated as much in the OP.
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

Post by FTeik »

Part of this discussion reminds me of the suggestions by "experts" (mostly with an anglo-saxon background), that Germany should increase its service- and especially banking-sector as a cure, when it was still considered to be the "sick man of Europe". We all know, how that went.

I could be wrong about that, but isn't nuclear energy cheap only because the producers don't can/have to provide insurance (who would insure them?), if anything happens?

And before anybody places me into the "hippie-camp", I used to be pro-nuclear. Used, because after the leaks at Asse II and the 180°-turn by Merkel and pals after Fukushima I decided, that it doesn't matter how safe nuclear powerplants can be. You just can't trust the people in charge
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Brain_Caster
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

Post by Brain_Caster »

FTeik wrote: And before anybody places me into the "hippie-camp", I used to be pro-nuclear. Used, because after the leaks at Asse II and the 180°-turn by Merkel and pals after Fukushima I decided, that it doesn't matter how safe nuclear powerplants can be. You just can't trust the people in charge
Same here. I have no problem believing that it is technically possible to build a safe nuclear power plant and deal with the waste in an acceptable way, but I have absolutely no confidence at all in the industry's ability to actually do so. After the mess they left at Asse for the taxpayer to clean up they don't deserve a second chance.
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Thanas
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Re: Germany joins Swiss, ends ALL nuke plants

Post by Thanas »

FTeik wrote:I could be wrong about that, but isn't nuclear energy cheap only because the producers don't can/have to provide insurance (who would insure them?), if anything happens?
I do not know about that, but if you take the public subsidies to them into account, nuclear energy costs two-three times as much as other forms of energy. The reason power companies love them is because nearly all the construction is funded by the taxpayer, while the profits are of course enjoyed only by the power companies.
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