Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by K. A. Pital »

Starglider wrote:...Stas will assure you are due to vanish into the ether any minute now, since any economic activity other than steel mills and coal mines is an illusion.
More like all other (service, etc.) activities are supported by diverse base industries, and if they are not, the economy is poorly diversified - which, under certain circumstances (such as an economic crisis), can lead to rather adverse consequences. I know you don't like me because I don't like Britain's historical shitty-poo, but that's not good grounds to make a strawman of my ideas.

Besides, have you not used my name, I wouldn't even touch this thread with a ten-foot pole (other than maybe saying "good luck in the struggle for worker's rights", duh).
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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NecronLord wrote:One of the arguments you see flying around runs as follows:

There used to be an understanding that the Public Sector got paid worse than the Private Sector but got a better pension. Now though, the Public Sector gets paid better than the Private Sector, so it's unfair that they also get a better pension.

Let's look at this...

Median increase of level of full-time earnings in...
The public sector, 2010: 3.0% Source - ONS
The private sector, 2010: 2.0% Source - ONS

So, looks like the Public Sector is having a bonanza, eh?

Retail Price Index (Inflation, How much stuff costs type) increase in tax year ending 2011: 5.2% Source - ONS

So... increases in wages in both sector are behind the UK cost of living increase; both public and private workers are taking a continuous pay cut. It is simply that the Public Sector is better at resting pay cuts, why?

Perhaps it's because the Public Sector has large trade unions to fight for the workers, and the public sector in this country, by and large, does not.

Now, call me insane, but I think it might be rather better to restore private sector pay by making legal changes that help the public sector unionize and fight for the wage increases they deserve, rather than blame the Public Sector for being better at protecting themselves, and demand they conform.

The problem with these figures is that in some cases the public sector pay still is very poor. Comparitively

Teachers/Nurses etc are highly qualified, and if they went into the private sector with their qualifications they could do a lot better for themselves. Most public sector workers aren't of this calibre and what skews those stats is all the administrators and paper pushers who for some absurd reason do get paid equivalent to private sector wages.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Zac Naloen wrote:what skews those stats is all the administrators and paper pushers who for some absurd reason do get paid equivalent to private sector wages.
I'm not sure how this is absurd. Can you give me one good reason why Joe Bloggs the Payroll Clerk at Cadbury's deserves to earn more money than John Smith the Payroll Clerk for the Civil Service?

Is the work he does harder? Is it more worthy in some way?
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Apologies I was half asleep when I wrote that. It's not absurb in the sense that the administrators and pencil pushers don't deserve what they get paid, it's absurd in the sense that teachers and nurses don't get the type of pay their qualifications would suggest they deserve (by a long way).

I was advocating that teachers deserve better than they get, yet because of our governments mispending one of the few perks of the job is now diminished so the profession is now looking even less attractive than the average private worker.

The point I was making re: the stats being screwed is that the volume of these people on the equivalent wages hides all those on unequivalent wages.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Starglider wrote:As Thanas will explain to you endlessly, UK industry is a poor pathetic cripple, a few starved dregs surviving only because Germany has not yet felt the need to destroy it utterly.
Good job on your part to namedrop me in a thread I did not even post in and then lie about what I said. Vendetta much?
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Starglider, in case you still remain in this thread, when did Thanas say such things. He discussed the damaged state of British industry and the loss of long term brands. He also talked about Britain demanding Germany change it's economy but he never made it out to be like you describe it, unless you can show us of course.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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The UK industry has been dying after many decades since WWI because the UK establishment has little economic acumen, demonstrated when they allowed Bombadier to bomb in favour of Siemens for train construction and the rest of the private sector is still getting killed and 4000 shops have shut down (with a couple of struggling shop brands becoming extinct ala Woolworths).
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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I was truly amazed by the Bombardier "bomb" (just saw it on the news), by the way. I know the quality of Bombardier trains doesn't really differ much from Siemens rolling stock. The factory is local, so the logistic arm is shorter and servicing the trains is also cheaper. By all reasonable what's in the world Bombardier should have gotten that deal.

I heavily suspect bribery. In fact, when there's a competition between two relatively similar in quality products and the one with a longer supply arm and service arm wins, there's good reason to suspect someone was personally bribed.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Having read up on it now, there is a massive stink of nationalism about it. The fact is Siemens already has half a dozen factories in the UK and employs more people here than Bombardier (which is now actually a Canadian company anyway......) either way, jobs were going to be lost *somewhere*
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Dartzap wrote:Having read up on it now, there is a massive stink of nationalism about it. The fact is Siemens already has half a dozen factories in the UK and employs more people here than Bombardier (which is now actually a Canadian company anyway......) either way, jobs were going to be lost *somewhere*
Siemens has no train factories in the UK.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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yet.

of course, I hear bombardier has some plants up for sale...
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Stas Bush wrote:
Dartzap wrote:Having read up on it now, there is a massive stink of nationalism about it. The fact is Siemens already has half a dozen factories in the UK and employs more people here than Bombardier (which is now actually a Canadian company anyway......) either way, jobs were going to be lost *somewhere*
Siemens has no train factories in the UK.
Bombardier's manufacturing facilities are, to a majority, in Germany as well. After all, in 1995 they bought Talbot in Aachen and DWA in 1998. It is only since 2001 that they had any factories in England at all, since then they bought Adtranz from Daimler. And Adtranz still has the majority of its factories in Germany, which is why the new models are all unveiled in Germany.

What is so british about Bombardier Transportation anyway? Their headquarters are in Berlin, their newest and biggest factories are in Germany. Even after their newest restructuring plans emphasized the closing of British factories (they closed one in Germany, one in Portugal, one in Sweden and three in Britain) while cutting the least amount of workers in Germany. In fact, whenever they unveil a new rolling stock, they do so in their factories in Germany.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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But they have a beer named after them with a spitfire on it!

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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Thanas wrote:Bombardier's manufacturing facilities are, to a majority, in Germany as well. After all, in 1995 they bought Talbot in Aachen and DWA in 1998. It is only since 2001 that they had any factories in England at all, since then they bought Adtranz from Daimler. And Adtranz still has the majority of its factories in Germany, which is why the new models are all unveiled in Germany.
Which means Bombardier isn't doing much good for Britain, too (and I didn't say they were "uniquely British" anyway). Nonetheless - losing your last (?) train plant means that the diversification of British industry is contracting. Which is not too good. If this persists, in a while Britain won't be able to build trains and will have to outsource. But for high-income economies the basis of industry are highly complex industrial products, like airplanes, trains, etc. I think it is important to keep a diverse array of manufacturing plants.

If that thing was overhyped (i.e. there are locomotive factories elsewhere in Britain), feel free to correct me.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Stas Bush wrote:
Thanas wrote:Bombardier's manufacturing facilities are, to a majority, in Germany as well. After all, in 1995 they bought Talbot in Aachen and DWA in 1998. It is only since 2001 that they had any factories in England at all, since then they bought Adtranz from Daimler. And Adtranz still has the majority of its factories in Germany, which is why the new models are all unveiled in Germany.
Which means Bombardier isn't doing much good for Britain, too (and I didn't say they were "uniquely British" anyway). Nonetheless - losing your last (?) train plant means that the diversification of British industry is contracting. Which is not too good. If this persists, in a while Britain won't be able to build trains and will have to outsource. But for high-income economies the basis of industry are highly complex industrial products, like airplanes, trains, etc. I think it is important to keep a diverse array of manufacturing plants.
I agree with you that diversification is important. and I think it would be a lot healthier for Europe if more nations would take care to keep their industry competitive instead of just leaving it to a few nations. However, Bombardier would not have been that company. And I doubt they would have done much manufacturing there anyway...

That said, the Siemens product was technologically superior. Reduced energy demands by 50% and increased capacity by 25%. And they apparently were the only ones who promised a working train withing a 30 months timeframe. So if you were a planner and were offered a deal between a railroad car that was promised to arrive within a given timeframe vs another bid that apparently did not offer such a guarantee, wouldn't you play it safe? Especially when that other bid consisted of "BRITISH and just 30% energy demands reduction."

If that thing was overhyped (i.e. there are locomotive factories elsewhere in Britain), feel free to correct me.
They won't close the plant, they'll scale it back to the current production levels, which means they'll cut 1300 out of 3000 workers. Though given the recent management decisions, it seems clear that the plant would need major investments to stay competitive and there is no point in trying to bring a factory up to that standard when you can get more with less in other countries.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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The scaling back of train building at Bombardier has stirred up public discontent and ever more people are getting overtly pissed off at their jobs getting chronically siphoned away:
Bombardier Rally

Union leaders, MPs and local politicians all showed up in Derby for a massive march through the city today.

Around ten thousands of people joined a demonstration yesterday in support of the UK's last train manufacturer, Bombardier in Derby.

The march through the city centre saw applause from Saturday shoppers and families as they protested a Government decision to award a £1.4 billion contract to build new carriages to German firm Siemens, ahead of Bombardier.

The Derby-based firm has warned that 1,400 jobs will be axed as a result of losing out on the Thameslink deal.

Workers left offices while shoppers stood and applauded as the demonstrators marched through Derby city centre to a rally, where Diana Holland, assistant general secretary of Unite, called on the Government to reverse its decision.

``We have created a huge alliance here and we must keep the campaign going because it is not loo late to persuade the Government to change its mind,'' she said.

``The Government last week opened up a red tape challenge on manufacturing so the only thing they have to offer is cutting workplace safety standards and employment regulations.

``What they need to do is support workers and invest in manufacturing.''

Ms Holland asked why the Government had not taken social costs and jobs into account when awarding the contract, which she claimed had been structured to disadvantage the Derby plant.

Unions were continuing to press politicians to support a change of heart from the Government and were considering a legal challenge, said Ms Holland, who described today's protest as ``absolutely incredible''.

GMB official Tyehimba Nosakhere said: ``It is clear that Bombardier were not only victims of the Government's lack of concern for maintaining manufacturing in this country, but also the Government continued to meet with Bombardier and obtain information from them with regards to the bid after the Government were aware that they would be awarding the preferred bidders status to Siemens.

``The Government then used some of this information in their propaganda against the company once the redundancies were announced.''

A poll of more than 25,000 adults for the Unite union showed that 88% wanted the Government to reconsider its decision and 95% believed the coalition should actively support manufacturing jobs in this country.

A Department for Transport spokesman said: ``This Government strongly supports British manufacturing. However, the Thameslink procurement was set up and designed by the previous Government and we are legally bound by the criteria set out at the beginning of that process.

``Going forward, we fully recognise that there is a need to examine the wider issue of whether the UK is making best use of the application of EU procurement rules and this will be examined as part of the Government's growth review.''
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I've heard that Bombardier had a worse credit rating than Siemens and also the 1, 200 carriages built by Siemens contain untested parts that are incompatible on UK train lines (though I blame the Siemens rolling stock getting rushed through by the idiots in the UK). Bombardier were inadequate at selling a contract and employed more people elsewhere, but the UK just cannot keep on levelling its manufactering base for shits 'n giggles, while France and Italy retain their automobile industries in face of Germany's superior automobile industry, and Russian law enforcement still contracts pre-Soviet Collapse car manufacturers.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Starglider »

Big Orange wrote:but the UK just cannot keep on levelling its manufactering base for shits 'n giggles
The absolute value of goods manufactured has not declined significantly, although it's true that it hasn't kept pace with the growth of the population or the economy as a whole over the last decade (of Labour government - grew well through the former Conservative government).

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The perceived destruction is due to the change in the composition of this from large scale / heavy industry employing lots of semi-skilled workers to high tech, high-added-value specialist manufacturing. The later tends to use small industrial units instead of sprawling factories and employs a lot fewer people per pound of annual revenue.
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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

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Proportionately more UK manufacturing allegedly got lost under Blair and Brown, than it did under Thatcher and Major, but British high-tech manufacturing and R&D should still not be underestimated, however that said the closure of the Bombardier plant has eaten a big chunk of that when even engineers are not safe and not anybody can become a engineer, while the mass of relatively more menial UK jobs have already been decimated by outsourcing and mass immigration, which helped to short-circuit things. And in three to five decades time there's the possibility of early AI computer systems, more autonomous and articulate robots, and perhaps early nano-tech dramatically decreasing the demand for human labour.

The growth of the UK public sector under the Labour maladministration seemed to be a sop for the shrinkage of the UK private sector, painting itself into a corner by impovershing the indigenous consumer base by firing/deskilling/underpaying/overcharging them.

Meanwhile Oliver Letwin, a Tory crony, thinks he's Grand Moff Tarkin:
Public sector workers need 'discipline and fear', says Oliver Letwin
Coalition's policy chief on reforms believes excellence would be achieved through fear of losing jobs and real discipline

Oliver Letwin, the coalition's policy minister, has revealed the government's determination to instil "fear" among those working in the public sector, who he claimed had failed for the past 20 years to improve their productivity.

Letwin, architect of the coalition's plans to reform public services, told a meeting at the offices of a leading consultancy firm that the public sector had atrophied over the past two decades.

In controversial comments angering teachers, nurses and doctors, he warned that it was only through "some real discipline and some fear" of job losses that excellence would be achieved in the public sector.

Letwin added that some of those running schools and hospitals would not survive the process and that it was an "inevitable and intended" consequence of government policy.

"You can't have room for innovation and the pressure for excellence without having some real discipline and some fear on the part of the providers that things may go wrong if they don't live up to the aims that society as a whole is demanding of them," he said.

"If you have diversity of provision and personal choice and power, some providers will be better and some worse. Inevitably, some will not, whether it's because they can't attract the patient or the pupil, for example, or because they can't get results and hence can't get paid. Some will not survive. It is an inevitable and intended consequence of what we are talking about."

Mark Serwotka, general secretary of the Public and Commercial Services Union (PCSU), reacted angrily to Letwin's comments, describing them as "nonsense".

He added: "Public sector workers are already working in fear – fear of cuts to their job, pension, living standards and of privatisation. Far from improving productivity, the cuts are creating chaos in vital public services."

Letwin was speaking at the launch of a liberal thinktank's report at the London headquarters of KPMG, one of the biggest recipients of government cash, which won the first contract for NHS commissioning following the decision to scrap primary care trusts and further open the health service to private companies.

Letwin's recent white paper on public sector reform had been dismissed as watered down earlier this month amid speculation that the Liberal Democrats had vetoed radical change. But Letwin said on Wednesday that he believed he was prosecuting "the most ambitious set of public service reforms that any government in modern Britain has undertaken", adding that productivity had improved across the economy except in the public sector in the past 20 years.

A spokesman for the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said he did not know where Letwin had sourced his figures. However, an ONS analysis that works back to 1997, shows that productivity in public services fell on average by 0.3% a year between 1997 and 2008 because the level of inputs, such as staff and equipment, increased faster than the output, such as operations performed and numbers of pupils taught.

Harriet Harman, Labour's deputy leader, said last night that she did not recognise Letwin's portrayal of the public sector. "Death rates in hospitals have been falling, satisfaction levels have been rising," she said. "What hasn't changed is the Tories' antipathy to public services. And the idea that the way to improve public services is to put fear into those who provide them is absolutely grotesque."

A Cabinet Office spokesperson said: "It is widely acknowledged that there is a problem with productivity in public services. The government's policy is to improve it and provide the best value for the taxpayer."
The Guardian*

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Re: Mass British Public Sector Strikes Begin

Post by Big Orange »

It seems that Derby are potentially getting buttfucked by a fickle corporation again, this time it's Rolls-Royce:
Rolls Royce plant 'may go abroad'

Engine maker Rolls-Royce has come under fire after admitting it is considering building a new hi-tech facility overseas rather than in the UK. The company told workers it is looking at the feasibility of constructing an aircraft engine testing plant in Germany or the US instead of at its UK base in Derby, the Observer reported. It is a further blow for Derby after train maker Bombardier announced 1,400 job losses in the city following the Government's announcement that it would award a £1.4 billion contract to Germany's Siemens. Adrian Axtell, Unite regional secretary for the East Midlands, said: "This has potentially long-term implications for Derby's manufacturing base.


"Work follows the experimental test-beds and a significant number of jobs in Derby are linked to development projects. "Rolls-Royce, with the support of the Government, need to do everything possible to maintain its development projects in Derby in the long term." One trade union source said the announcement hit staff "like a ton of bricks" and exacerbated concerns about the future of manufacturing in the city in the wake of the Bombardier announcement. Mr Axtell, who represents about half of Rolls Royce's 11,000-strong workforce in the city, added: "The uncertainties arising from Rolls-Royce's plans go to show why the Government should support Bombardier when it can instead of allowing the work to go to Germany." Rolls said its Derby plant - its centre of excellence for large engines - will continue to build and test Trent XWB engines for the new Airbus A350 aircraft due to launch in 2013. A spokesman for the firm, which employs 39,000 people and manufactures in 20 different countries, said the company will double the number of Trent engines it produces to power the next generation of wide body planes. He added: "Rolls-Royce is investing billions of pounds, in the UK and around the world, so that it can keep up with customer demand and fulfil its £60 billion order book. "This will sustain jobs at Rolls-Royce as well as in the hundreds of British companies in our supply chain."
The Independent

Let's hope Rolls-Royce (and by extension Airbus) in the quest to keep things under budget to maximise profits don't end up hoisting themselves by their petards by cutting too many corners like Boeing did (by firing a lot of engineers and sub-contracted unreliable third parties for aircraft parts). And it seems tough for the average British worker in the private sector, no matter his qualifications or potential.
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