Victor Davis Hanson falls of the wagon (again)

[Zinegata]

It does not depend on the time period. Rome itself was funded by outcasts and widely accepted outcasts of all nations and races. In fact, this is what Roman historians universely credited as their success - that they were willing to give citizenship to anybody who moved to Rome, regardless of his background (which, considering city states in those times exiled a lot of people, was a great influx of capital and manpower).

The issues of citizenship however are a question of control and entitlement rather than one of xenophobia and racism. First of all, Rome had no interest in extending universal citizenship over all of Italy considering they were ruling over it while they themselves were a republic, as that would have meant the greatly outnumbered Romans would no longer have control. Nevertheless you see a spread of Roman citizenships throughout Italy as Citizenship was awarded according to individual merit or political reasons.

Class differences did exist but I fail to see what they have to do with racism.

So there was no racial element to the Patricians? I ask because they seem to have attempted to maintain an exclusive hold on power by virtue of birth; but perhaps this is an oversimplification.

Also, wasn't citizenship eventually opened to everyone under the reign of Cladius, when he passed the law allowing Auxilia to become citizens after 25 years of service?

[Thanas]

So there was no racial element to the Patricians? I ask because they seem to have attempted to maintain an exclusive hold on power by virtue of birth; but perhaps this is an oversimplification.

That is a social element and a question of prestige, not a racial one. Race is a very nebulous concept in antiquity and has more to do with geography and the culture one chose to follow instead of racial elements.

Would you say the British aristocracy was racist against the citizens of London when they argued against privileges of the cities?

Also, wasn't citizenship eventually opened to everyone under the reign of Cladius, when he passed the law allowing Auxilia to become citizens after 25 years of service?

Auxillia service does not equal universal citizenship, which only happened after the constitutio antoniniana.

[Zinegata]

Would you say the British aristocracy was racist against the citizens of London when they argued against privileges of the cities?

Somewhat, if the aristocracy was limited only to London and its nearby cities, while excluding the rest of the country and the colonies.

But yes, I get your point that it was probably more of a social/prestige issue rather than primarily a racial issue.

[Thanas]

It cannot have been a racial issue at all considering the citizens of Rome were pretty much of the same racial makeup as the patricians.

And we got members of the patricians from colonies as well.

[Zinegata]

And we got members of the patricians from colonies as well.

Ok, that I was not aware of.

[ComradeClaus]

The following is my observation on how the "bullet points" of greco-roman history appear to americans. At least the ones I know. Not my own views:

Part of the appeal of Greece & Rome is the imagery of elegant city-states of limestone columns, coliseums & palaces, & gleaming bronze armor (later iron/steel) on ranks of professional soldiers, against villages of mud huts w/ hordes of filthy barbarians.

(except Conan of course, America loves the Cimmerian Governator & the remake)

With the Greeks, you have a foe in the "middle eastern" Persian Empire, w/ Rome, you have the various barbarians who eventually "plunged Europe into the Dark Ages" In America now, you have "terrorists" as the new barbarians for us to smite. Or any person from the 3rd world who gets in the way of the leaders of the US. And "indians" during our drive west.

Of course, Rome had a great interest in Egyptian civilization as well. Importing obelisks. Ironically, France & America added obelisks to their own national imagery. Plus when the renaissance bloomed in europe, their was a surge in popularity of the greco-roman classics. And at the turn of the 20th century, the Modern Olympics were founded, inspired be the Ancient Greek games. And people in cities around the world run Marathons. So it's something that's been deeply inbedded in the minds of the people of the west.

[Elfdart]

They've been taught over and over that America is a cultural descendant of ancient Greece and Rome (a belief which is only reinforced by their choice of eagle iconography and the architectural tastes of early Americans, who loved Roman and Greek building styles), so this can only mean that Greece and Rome fall on the side of "Good", whatever rationalizations you need to make that happen.

Until the mid-1800s, the American preference was for French-style architecture. Washington DC in particular was still a very French-looking town until the second wave of Roman-style architectural wank hit the city in the aftermath of the Spanish-American War and the Great War. Senator Thomas Gore had a famous one-liner about how someday all those columns and marble monuments would make a lovely set of ruins .