First Chinese car to go on sale in US, last Crown Vic built.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

As a Skyline owner and enthusiast, you are a woman after my own heart

*blink* Nissan has an I-6?

[Stark]

JSF could have at least picked the rebadged Holden Caprice; since that is actually being offered here (I think) under the Chevy Caprice brand as a cop car.

Yeah, he's an idiot. So who cares what it looks like again?

More sad news. I just noticed that the last Lincoln Town Car rolled off the lines in the same factory on 29 August.

Awww. Imagine how much you cried when all those other marks disappeared only to come back! Marketing... so sad.

You continue to miss the point about why the Coda is so important. It shows that Chinese automakers are willing to put in the effort to improve quality and design (safety features, etc) in order to meet US regulatory standards.

And this surprises you WHY? I can imagine you saying the same alarmist stuff about the Japanese in the 70s! If only American industrial relations law wasn't so childish and lame?

The next 15 years in the automotive market in the US should be interesting.

Do you really think there's a chance it'll be interesting in a positive way for your domestic industry? You were saying before that the CV factory could make 250,000 a year; it hasn't sold even half that many in a decade. So why keep it around? Pride? Fear of China?

If you're afraid of China you want to make MORE economical cars with MORE economies of scale, not continue to produce vehicles like the CV.

Of course, you probably are all STRAKKED out on this because you've had Great Wall Motors in Aussieland since 2009.

Why would I care? I'm not a braindead patriotic brandslave like you. My dad, a Ford Falcon HURF DURF Bathurst-watching old-school 'loyalist', drives a Great Wall ute and thinks it's awesome. That's life, buddy. Time to live it.

[Vendetta]

As a Skyline owner and enthusiast, you are a woman after my own heart

*blink* Nissan has an I-6?

Yeah, in the Skyline range up to 2001-2 when they switched to a V6.

[aerius]

Let's see. The V-8 is not mechanically perfectly balanced; that would be the I-6, which is presently only offered in the US in a RWD configuration (which is the purist way of going about performance handling and the only option other than AWD) by BMW. The I-6 is also infinitely scaleable and the V-8 was never really necessary in a RWD car. If you care more about handling the "compactness" of the V-8 is irrelevant. The Crown Vic is not and never was a performance vehicle. As for efficiency, again, one can scale an I-6 to needs since you're talking about efficiency relative to horsepower, and that's a bit sly since turbocharging clearly doesn't count for you but definitely yields better efficiency in say an I-4 or I-6 than a naturally aspirated V-8.

A V8 with a crossplane crankshaft is perfectly balanced once you slap a few counterweights on the crankshaft. Which is every V8 that's been stuffed in an American car since I was born. With regards to handling the compactness of a V8 is relevant, because it's shorter you can stick it closer to the rotational centre of the car, giving it a lower polar moment of inertia. Which allows the car to initiate turns a bit faster.

As for efficiency:

BMW's 3.0L twin turbo I-6 is rated at 330 horsepower, as used in the 335is coupe it delivers 26mpg

GM's naturally aspirated 6.2L LS3 V8 has 430 horsepower and delivers 26mpg if stuffed in the lightweight Corvette and 24mpg if used in the grossly overweight Camaro. In a car that's the same weight as the 335i it should get you 25mpg.

So for a 1mpg hit the V8 delivers an extra 100 horsepower. Let's see, 4% less fuel mileage and 30% more power. What was that about efficiency again?

[Stark]

Maybe if you don't use hopeless comparisons? VE Commodores take a 30%+ hit to fuel efficiency going from V6 to V8. Worth it?

Nope.

[MKSheppard]

Awww. Imagine how much you cried when all those other marks disappeared only to come back! Marketing... so sad.

You mean like the Chevy Caprice came back as a body-on-frame make with a trunk large enough to toss a wheelchair in easily? Oh wait...

And this surprises you WHY?

It's a major investment in time and money -- and is another signal of China's aim to move from being the world's cheap factory to producing their own IPs that can compete with other global brands.

I'm not surprised by the fact that it happened, but rather at the speed it occured at.

Do you really think there's a chance it'll be interesting in a positive way for your domestic industry?

It'll be interesting to see the slapfight between the lower end Asian automakers in the US, such as Mazda/Mitsubishi/Kia/Subaru/Suzuki when the Chinese corporations manage to get past the perception of "Made in China = Suck", and start to cannibalize those sales.

[Note: Lower end as in sales volume, not quality]

You were saying before that the CV factory could make 250,000 a year; it hasn't sold even half that many in a decade. So why keep it around? Pride? Fear of China?

The market for police vehicles in the USA is estimated at around 75,000 vehicles/year; while the taxicab market is around 5,000 or less. There's also the Limo/Livery market, which I can't find hard numbers on easily.

Back in the early 1990s, the police market was split between Ford / Chevy about 50/50; and the same was mostly true in the taxicab market; but since Chevy killed the Caprice in '96; Ford effectively took over both markets.

Given that the tooling had long ago been paid off, it was effectively a license for Ford to print money on a minor scale.

[MKSheppard]

The Charger definitely performs better in pursuits IMO, however, although I can tell you other LEOs may have different opinions.

How are they holding up, in your experience? I've read they go through brakepads pretty fast (price of being optimized for performance), and of course, some departments find that Chargers go through the maintenance budget a bit faster than the CV.

[MKSheppard]

EDIT: forgot to add this to my last post:

Why would I care? I'm not a braindead patriotic brandslave like you.

I was referring more to the "shiny! / they're being sold here now? wow!" gee-whiz factor being over with you, since Chinese cars have been sold in Dundeeland for the last two years.

My dad, a Ford Falcon HURF DURF Bathurst-watching old-school 'loyalist', drives a Great Wall ute and thinks it's awesome.

That's actually interesting. Does your dad have any specific nits or picks with it? Does it actually hold up to minor off road duty, or does he drive it only on paved roads? How has service been with the dealer?

[tim31]

It is not true that you cannot repair a Monocoque construction vehicle. It's just that you often cannot do so in a convenient manner.

FURTHER EXAMPLE: my mate was pulling out of, wait for this, the body works. A lady had moved into the sliplane to turn in to the same business park.

Or so he thought.



That's an 80km/h impact into the side of his Ford utility, which uses a modular tub tray. They're still assessing it, but the car may live. If he'd been in the GM equivalent, which is a monocoque, his panel beater(who obviously witnessed the accident) would have written it off straight away, since there probably would have been deformation in the b-pillar.

[Stark]

Shep, your numbers make it look like almost nobody except cops and commercial users bought the CV. If they wanted to keep maing them, they probably should have downscaled factories etc (of course due to awful IR that might be impossible).

My dad thinks the Great Wall has a better transmission than his 2004 Hilux, and the dash is pretty crappy all-plastic thing (like on a Getz). Obviously it's less than a year old, so who knows how long it'll live - but they're cheap as dirt, $17kish for a 'proper' ute (ie F150 high-sided thing rather than aluminium tray like a Hilux).

[RogueIce]

Shep, your numbers make it look like almost nobody except cops and commercial users bought the CV. If they wanted to keep maing them, they probably should have downscaled factories etc (of course due to awful IR that might be impossible).

Past 2008 or so, Ford stopped selling them on the regular market, and the CV was available only to commercial fleet sales (which would include CVPIs). So I don't know if the general public would have kept buying them or not*, but Ford had already made the decision to stop selling to the general public. I remember even back then they were talking about Ford wanting to move on from the Panther line; my guess is they kept it open this long until they had a replacement ready for CVPIs, as they didn't want to lose the police market.

*You could check sales figures for the Grand Marquis I guess, which was a rebranded CV, to sort of guesstimate whether the mass market would have kept buying them.

As far as the factory not being put to full use, I dunno. Did they retool and build other Ford cars there, or did the lines just sit empty for the past three or so years? Any info, Shep?

[Sephirius]

The line was shuttered when the last car was produced, unlikely to be restarted. Ford laid off everyone working there, and will not be helping the workforce in finding new jobs. I bet they'll knock it down, sell the land and more urban sprawl will pop up.


Basically a St. Therese mk. II.

[Zaune]

The line was shuttered when the last car was produced, unlikely to be restarted. Ford laid off everyone working there, and will not be helping the workforce in finding new jobs. I bet they'll knock it down, sell the land and more urban sprawl will pop up.


Basically a St. Therese mk. II.

Whatever your feelings about the Crown Victoria, that really is a sad waste. Would it have been all that hard to retool the production lines for a model that fits the current market?

[Dahak]

BMW's 3.0L twin turbo I-6 is rated at 330 horsepower, as used in the 335is coupe it delivers 26mpg

Just a nitpick, but the 335i (as in the Coupé) has 306hp and 28mpg (US gallons; from 8.4L/100km) according to BMWs technical data sheet.

[lukexcom]

Just a nitpick, but the 335i (as in the Coupé) has 306hp and 28mpg (US gallons; from 8.4L/100km) according to BMWs technical data sheet.

Dahak, the 335is "Coupe" is a North-American-exclusive variant of the 335i Coupé.

The 335is has an uprated N54 engine (while the regular 335i recently switched out from the N54 to the N55). The numbers that come up on BMW USA are 320hp / 332ft-lb torque and 18mpg city/26mpg highway.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, your numbers make it look like almost nobody except cops and commercial users bought the CV. If they wanted to keep maing them, they probably should have downscaled factories etc (of course due to awful IR that might be impossible).

From what little I've been able to glean, there were a number of factors leading to the Panther Platform's demise this year, rather than it being updated, besides corporate indifference:

• CAFE standards being raised soon. Unlike SUVs or Trucks, the Panther Platform counts towards Ford's CAFE average.
• All 2012 model cars manufactuered after 31 August 2011 need to have electronic stability control. If you don't have it you can't sell the car domestically (which explains why the last Crown Vic was exported to Saudi Arabia).
• Tooling was starting to get a little worn out.

Also, by letting the platform die; it meant that the St. Thomas plant could be eliminated -- Ford apparently had a deal with the Canadian Auto Workers union about closures that let them do this. So it's not poor US industrial relations, but also poor Canadian industrial relations too.

Obviously it's less than a year old, so who knows how long it'll live - but they're cheap as dirt, $17kish for a 'proper' ute (ie F150 high-sided thing rather than aluminium tray like a Hilux).

$17k USD or AUD? Either way, that's actually pretty decent pricing. I tried to find out more information about it, but GW Motor's english website leaves a lot to be desired as far as functionality goes. We'll see how well they hold up in a few years, as well as how Great Wall treats its customers, which are the important bits.

[Sephirius]

[*]All 2012 model cars manufactuered after 31 August 2011 need to have electronic stability control. If you don't have it you can't sell the car domestically (which explains why the last Crown Vic was exported to Saudi Arabia).

This is the one that bugs me the most. If you need ESC to be able to drive, you shouldn't be on the friggin road. Just one more brick in the beigeification of the auto industry, and laziness and inattentiveness of drivers and driving as a whole.

The below quote sums up my opinion on this sort of thing:

"... I ask Herb Helbig, vehicle synthesis manager for SRT and a member of the original Team Viper development group since day one, if they'd ever thought of adding traction control. "It comes with two," he says, pointing at my feet. "Learn to use them." Got it."
- Motor Trend on the 2006 Dodge Viper Coupe, November 2005

I miss the days when people were expected to know how to drive if they wanted to be on the road, and not be automotive script kiddies having their problems sorted out by computers.

[Dahak]

Just a nitpick, but the 335i (as in the Coupé) has 306hp and 28mpg (US gallons; from 8.4L/100km) according to BMWs technical data sheet.

Dahak, the 335is "Coupe" is a North-American-exclusive variant of the 335i Coupé.

The 335is has an uprated N54 engine (while the regular 335i recently switched out from the N54 to the N55). The numbers that come up on BMW USA are 320hp / 332ft-lb torque and 18mpg city/26mpg highway.

It seems I overlooked the tiny "s" that makes the difference

[Dahak]

[*]All 2012 model cars manufactuered after 31 August 2011 need to have electronic stability control. If you don't have it you can't sell the car domestically (which explains why the last Crown Vic was exported to Saudi Arabia).

This is the one that bugs me the most. If you need ESC to be able to drive, you shouldn't be on the friggin road. Just one more brick in the beigeification of the auto industry, and laziness and inattentiveness of drivers and driving as a whole.

The below quote sums up my opinion on this sort of thing:

"... I ask Herb Helbig, vehicle synthesis manager for SRT and a member of the original Team Viper development group since day one, if they'd ever thought of adding traction control. "It comes with two," he says, pointing at my feet. "Learn to use them." Got it."
- Motor Trend on the 2006 Dodge Viper Coupe, November 2005

I miss the days when people were expected to know how to drive if they wanted to be on the road, and not be automotive script kiddies having their problems sorted out by computers.

Not everyone is a perfect super-quick driver that will never be surprised and always reacts 100% right in split-seconds.
It saves lives and makes the street safer for everyone around. When a situation changes quicker than you can react as a driver, I rather have a computer save me than crash...

[folti78]

[*]All 2012 model cars manufactuered after 31 August 2011 need to have electronic stability control. If you don't have it you can't sell the car domestically (which explains why the last Crown Vic was exported to Saudi Arabia).

This is the one that bugs me the most. If you need ESC to be able to drive, you shouldn't be on the friggin road. Just one more brick in the beigeification of the auto industry, and laziness and inattentiveness of drivers and driving as a whole.

The below quote sums up my opinion on this sort of thing:

"... I ask Herb Helbig, vehicle synthesis manager for SRT and a member of the original Team Viper development group since day one, if they'd ever thought of adding traction control. "It comes with two," he says, pointing at my feet. "Learn to use them." Got it."
- Motor Trend on the 2006 Dodge Viper Coupe, November 2005

I miss the days when people were expected to know how to drive if they wanted to be on the road, and not be automotive script kiddies having their problems sorted out by computers.

Not everyone is a perfect super-quick driver that will never be surprised and always reacts 100% right in split-seconds.

And even the best drivers will have days when they are not in their best shape (tired, sick, got a hangover, whatever) or simply distracted for a few key moments.

It saves lives and makes the street safer for everyone around. When a situation changes quicker than you can react as a driver, I rather have a computer save me than crash...

Agreed, it's another device that could save you in case of trouble, but you shouldn't rely on it and all the other safety devices in your car. Proper driver training is the most important ingredient, which is why it's funny when someone from the US bitches about shitty drivers, when they have minimal driver training combined with an infrastructure where you are practically disabled if you don't have a car in most parts of the country.

[Sephirius]

First, I don't live in the USA, but thanks for the generalization.

Secondly, ESC is a detriment to those of us who DO have proper car control training; especially in a rear wheel drive car where the computer stabbing the brakes away at the rear end can get you killed. (because that's all ESC and TC boil down to are computer controlled braking responses to 'minimize' skidding, especially true in the lower priced cars. Not all of them have the technowizard-y systems like the GT-R, which is a point often left out of conversations about such things.)

With respect to your other arguement about the driver not being 100%, ESC or TC is not so much a preventative measure, rather that if you get it to kick in you've usually already done something wrong. The idea that there is now this safety net there irritates me because it means less impetus on the driver and driver training to actually be competent, to avoid such situations in the first place!

[aerius]

First, I don't live in the USA, but thanks for the generalization.

Yeah, as if our driver training is any better.

Secondly, ESC is a detriment to those of us who DO have proper car control training; especially in a rear wheel drive car where the computer stabbing the brakes away at the rear end can get you killed. (because that's all ESC and TC boil down to are computer controlled braking responses to 'minimize' skidding, especially true in the lower priced cars. Not all of them have the technowizard-y systems like the GT-R, which is a point often left out of conversations about such things.)

Someone doesn't know shit about GT-Rs. Pretty much every car magazine and race driver that's tested it will tell you that it goes from understeer to snap oversteer in a highly unpredictable manner. You could hit the same corner twice in as identical a manner as humanly possible and get entirely different results because of the way the computer's programmed, you never know when or if the car's going to snap around until it actually happens.

Oh, by the way, every ESC and TC system retards the ignition timing first to reduce power to the wheels before hitting the brakes. They're not going to unbalance a RWD car and snap it around. Believe me, I've tried, I have a fair bit of track time and formal training in high performance driving in everything from a Chevy Malibu to a Z06 Corvette. In fact that was one of the first things the instructors showed us. You can floor the gas pedal in the middle of a turn with a Corvette while tightening up the turn and all you'll get is some horrible farting & misfiring noises from the engine as the ignition timing & power get dialed back, the car keeps going where you point it unless you've done something truly stupid like turning the wheel full lock. Same thing with a Mazda MX-5 or RX-8.

The reason the GT-R snaps around is because it's AWD plus they got way too fancy & complicated with the ESC system. One of my driving instructors had an explanation for it which I don't remember clearly enough to quote off the top of my head.

One more thing, unless your name is Ron Fellows, the fastest way around a track in Corvette is with the stability control system set to race mode.

With respect to your other arguement about the driver not being 100%, ESC or TC is not so much a preventative measure, rather that if you get it to kick in you've usually already done something wrong. The idea that there is now this safety net there irritates me because it means less impetus on the driver and driver training to actually be competent, to avoid such situations in the first place!

Yeah, I guess we don't need ABS either, cause if you set off the ABS system you're clearly a retard who doesn't know how to brake. Newsflash, we never gave a shit about driver training and we never will. Driver's aids ain't gonna change that or make it worse. This is the way things will be as long as we are a car entitlement society.

[Sephirius]

Oh, by the way, every ESC and TC system retards the ignition timing first to reduce power to the wheels before hitting the brakes. They're not going to unbalance a RWD car and snap it around. Believe me, I've tried, I have a fair bit of track time and formal training in high performance driving in everything from a Chevy Malibu to a Z06 Corvette. In fact that was one of the first things the instructors showed us. You can floor the gas pedal in the middle of a turn with a Corvette while tightening up the turn and all you'll get is some horrible farting & misfiring noises from the engine as the ignition timing & power get dialed back, the car keeps going where you point it unless you've done something truly stupid like turning the wheel full lock. Same thing with a Mazda MX-5 or RX-8.\

Is this really true of all systems these days? I have not driven any sort of newer vehicle with ESC, as the first and last one that had it that I tried (as in pushed to its limits) was a late 90s Merc SL. I hated it so much I never wanted it or anything like it on my car if i could help it.

With respect to the GT-R, I was more referring to the older models, for what it's worth. (I know next to nothing about the current one, I was just extrapolating, and concede the point.)