AG Holder & 'Fast and Furious' / 'Gunwalker'

[TimothyC]

October 7, 2011 5:25 PM
AG Holder responds to critics on Fast and Furious

By Sharyl Attkisson

In a letter to Congress, Attorney General Eric Holder has gone on the record with the most details yet about what he and other Justice Department officials knew about ATF's Fast and Furious operation, even though memos surfaced earlier this week showing multiple briefing memos mentioning Fast and Furious were sent to him as early as July of last year.

Holder says that his testimony to Congress, stating he first heard of Fast and Furious earlier this year, "was truthful and accurate... I have no recollection of knowing about Fast and Furious prior to the public controversy about it."

In his letter, Holder also criticized the House Committee investigating Fast and Furious, saying he cannot sit idly by "as law enforcement and government employees who devote their lives to protecting our citizens be considered 'accessories to murder'."

Leahy plans Senate oversight hearing with Holder

Holder maintains he didn't know about the controversial gunwalking tactics used in the case.

The Attorney General says that while he was sent received memos on Fast and Furious, they are "actually provided to and reviewed by members of my staff and the staff of the Office of the Deputy Attorney General."

As CBS News has reported, the Deputy Attorney General during Fast and Furious, Gary Grindler is now Holder's Chief of Staff. Documents provided to Congress indicate Grindler received a detailed briefing on Fast and Furious in March of 2010 and made handwritten notes on briefing materials.

However, in the letter, Holder says Grindler "was not told of the unacceptable tactics employed in the operation in his regular monthly meetings with ATF..."

"I now understand some senior officials within the Department were aware at the time there was an operation called Fast and Furious although they were not advised of the unacceptable operational tactics being used in it," says Holder's letter.

Ariz. sheriffs call gunwalker "unconscionable," call for independent probe

Holder blamed Congress for failing to consider whether "additional tools are needed to stem the flow of guns to Mexico" and warned "until we move beyond the current political climate..nothing is going to change."

Late today, a spokesman for the House Oversight Committee investigating Fast and Furious said: "If Attorney General Holder had said these things five months ago when Congress asked him about Operation Fast and Furious, it might have been more believable."

So either he's lying or is so incompetent that he doesn't even read memos sent to him directly. The following part got to me:

Holder blamed Congress for failing to consider whether "additional tools are needed to stem the flow of guns to Mexico" and warned "until we move beyond the current political climate..nothing is going to change."

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SENT THEM THERE YOU MORON. Go screw yourself Mister Attorney General.

Or as I prefer it "Holder Lied, People Died."

[Count Chocula]

This controversy has been around for months despite (deliberate?) media inattention, with the exceptions of a few news outlets. It was not only a BATFE operation, there were multiple federal agencies involved. Shit, if an American Border Patrol agent and a Customs official hadn't been murdered with two of the weapons ATF's Gunwalker operation let, err, walk, they might have still been able to keep the operation under the radar.

Could this operation have been tied to this in its inspiration? Here's a quote: “I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady [Sarah Brady of Handgun Control Inc.] recalled [xxx] telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.” Hint: it ain't Holder.

This could be a worse shitstorm, if it gets the traction it deserves, than Watergate or Waco. In addition to BP agent Terry and US Customs Agent Zapata, there are an estimated 200+ Mexican citizens dead from guns (and narcos duh) traced to Gunwalker. Congressman Darrell Issa is doing yeoman's work investigating this, and higher-ups at Justice and BATFE at a minimum should be looking at prison terms.

IOW, senior officials of US government agencies, with malice aforethought, allowed the sale of illegal (in Mexico) firearms they KNEW would be used by the drug cartels to do a "sting" and help shape future US gun control legislation. Body count? Consequences? Who gives a fuck? Talk about abuse of power. This story should be top of fold news EVERY SINGLE DAY until the assholes who invented and instigated the scheme are behind bars.

[TimothyC]

This controversy has been around for months despite (deliberate?) media inattention, with the exceptions of a few news outlets. It was not only a BATFE operation, there were multiple federal agencies involved. Shit, if an American Border Patrol agent and a Customs official hadn't been murdered with two of the weapons ATF's Gunwalker operation let, err, walk, they might have still been able to keep the operation under the radar.

Could this operation have been tied to this in its inspiration? Here's a quote: “I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady [Sarah Brady of Handgun Control Inc.] recalled [xxx] telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.” Hint: it ain't Holder.

This could be a worse shitstorm, if it gets the traction it deserves, than Watergate or Waco. In addition to BP agent Terry and US Customs Agent Zapata, there are an estimated 200+ Mexican citizens dead from guns (and narcos duh) traced to Gunwalker. Congressman Darrell Issa is doing yeoman's work investigating this, and higher-ups at Justice and BATFE at a minimum should be looking at prison terms.

IOW, senior officials of US government agencies, with malice aforethought, allowed the sale of illegal (in Mexico) firearms they KNEW would be used by the drug cartels to do a "sting" and help shape future US gun control legislation. Body count? Consequences? Who gives a fuck? Talk about abuse of power. This story should be top of fold news EVERY SINGLE DAY until the assholes who invented and instigated the scheme are behind bars.

If President Obama was smart he'd take responsibility for the actions of the office, and fire (not demand the resignations of, but fire) Holder, the DAs in the states where the operations were launched out of, and disband the BATF (folding the responsibilities into the DEA and FBI, and allowing the agents to transfer after they get checked to make sure they were not involved in the operations), and order a full investigation into who in the White House knew what was going on when it was going on. He could even spin the disbanding of the BATF as cutting government waste, and launch an investigation into who in the prior administration was involved in the predecessor programs.

But that would require that he be smart and have a backbone.

[BrooklynRedLeg]

If I believed in a Just World, every single son-of-a-bitch involved in this would stand trial in open court. As for the BATFE, it should be forcibly disbanded and its all those agents responsible barred from EVER serving in any law enforcement capacity again (federal, state or local), if not sent to Leavenworth to turn big rocks into little rocks.

[CaptainChewbacca]

It seems like something has changed, today all the cable news channels were talking about Gunwalker and how Holder might need to resign.

[Sephirius]

Sorry, but what is the background to this, the coles notes version?

I understand that there is some sort of gun-running being done here, but is it any different than sort of the 'usual' US selling arms under the table deal?

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Sorry, but what is the background to this, the coles notes version?

I understand that there is some sort of gun-running being done here, but is it any different than sort of the 'usual' US selling arms under the table deal?

Essentially the BATF in an effort to stop gun crime from guns sold in the states and getting across they border (Project Gunrunner), apparently facilitated said purchases by intentionally turning a blind eye. They were trying to create their own smoking gun (no pun intended) so to speak so the anti-guns could say "AHA! See! Guns are bad and are being sold to mexican drug cartels! We must increase gun legislation and increase the BATF budget so they can do their jobs!" (Operation Fast and Furious) under the guise of building a bigger case against the cartels. Problem comes from the fact that they knowingly allowed the guns to be sold and illegally transported across the border, when their job as law enforcement is to specifically stop they guns from getting across the border. They went so far as to actually track the guns sold for illegal transport by serial number with the intention of "using the evidence against the cartels" in the future. It might have worked too, if so many mexicans hadn't died from those guns or a US immigration agent hadn't been killed by one either.

EDIT: If you're really interested I suggest reading the quoted articles off the wiki page. This even has essentially thrown me into the arms of the gun lobby.

[Scottish Ninja]

As I understand it, straw purchasers were allowed to illegally buy weapons for Mexican drug cartels, with the full knowledge of the ATF; the ATF then failed to track these same weapons as they crossed the border into Mexico and were then used in crimes. Two such weapons were recovered at the scene where a US Border Patrol agent was shot to death.

The suspicion is that the ATF knowingly let these weapons go (and may have encouraged their purchase) in order to 'prove' that current US gun laws are inadequate in preventing gun violence in Mexico.

[D.Turtle]

Essentially the BATF in an effort to stop gun crime from guns sold in the states and getting across they border (Project Gunrunner), apparently facilitated said purchases by intentionally turning a blind eye. They were trying to create their own smoking gun (no pun intended) so to speak so the anti-guns could say "AHA! See! Guns are bad and are being sold to mexican drug cartels! We must increase gun legislation and increase the BATF budget so they can do their jobs!" (Operation Fast and Furious) under the guise of building a bigger case against the cartels. Problem comes from the fact that they knowingly allowed the guns to be sold and illegally transported across the border, when their job as law enforcement is to specifically stop they guns from getting across the border. They went so far as to actually track the guns sold for illegal transport by serial number with the intention of "using the evidence against the cartels" in the future. It might have worked too, if so many mexicans hadn't died from those guns or a US immigration agent hadn't been killed by one either.

EDIT: If you're really interested I suggest reading the quoted articles off the wiki page. This even has essentially thrown me into the arms of the gun lobby.

You will of course cite evidence for this assertion that it was a deliberate policy to create this debacle in order to push gun control. After all, there has to be good evidence that convinces "even you" to join the gun lobby.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Thats what the scandal is about Turtle, its that emails have emerged that Holder was informed this was happening under his authority for those specific ends, and he didn't do anything about it.

[D.Turtle]

Except that it is quite a step from Holder knew about it, to Holder (and Obama?) deliberately created the entire thing in order to do gun control on the sly through the use of a manufactured crisis and the pursuant outrage when that crisis comes to light.

[CaptainChewbacca]

But not much of a step from 'Holder knew about it' to 'Holder allowed an illegal operation to continue after knowing about it'. And according to this guy Secretary Clinton may have known about this from the beginning.

[D.Turtle]

Of course that isn't a large step, and its one that is quite possible.

However, THAT is still a humongous step away from deliberately manufacturing a crisis with the goal of using the outrage created by this manufactured crisis in order to push through gun control. Which is what Ripp-n-wipe claimed.

[TimothyC]

Of course that isn't a large step, and its one that is quite possible.

However, THAT is still a humongous step away from deliberately manufacturing a crisis with the goal of using the outrage created by this manufactured crisis in order to push through gun control. Which is what Ripp-n-wipe claimed.

Why would Holder allow for illegal operation to continue if he knew about it?

[D.Turtle]

Because he thought it was a good idea despite it being illegal?

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Okay. I freely admit that the the "into the arms of the gun lobby" was a bit of hyperbole in addition to the bit about the operation being some kind of anti-gun lobby trick to tighten gun legislation. For those I apologize. However it really isn't that far a stretch regardless of how the situation turns out. There will be people who will clamor for more gun control because of this, not for more competence and transparency from those who currently "enforce" the law.

[ChaserGrey]

It's also true that right before this all broke, various politicians were arguing for more gun control because American guns were arming the cartels in Mexico. Now it turns out those folks' allies were the ones deliberately letting those guns across the border.

What's that prove? Absolutely nothing. But if you're already disposed to believe the worst about your political opponents (like, say 90% of the country these days), it looks awfully damn suspicious. Personally it's a bit too conspiracy-theory for my taste but I can understand why some people believe it.

[K. A. Pital]

The appetite comes during the devouring, the proverb says. It is true.

When people say the police can use provocators to bash skulls of people and then demand "increased pay", you get laughed at. When people say that drug-fighting cops can throw drugs into your pocket and throw you in jail to improve their drug-combat statistics, you get laughed at.

Whoa whoa, turns out that when it comes to money, the organization will do anything - regardless how amoral - to get the funding? That's not news. Of course, this could be a huge scandal. But it is merely a demonstration of the general principle - money is everything. When money is on the cards, it does not matter if people die. Or not. Irrelevant.

[Raj Ahten]

For Fuck's sake could we please cut out the hyperventilating about a conspiracy to enact tougher gun control laws being behind this operation? Going after kingpins by monitoring foot soldiers is a well recognized law enforcement tactic. Turns out when you are trying to go after mid level and high level members of a criminal smuggling conspiracy you have to let low level operatives go about their business. Otherwise they quickly figure out law enforcement is on to them, dump the straw buyers and start over.

In this case it meant guns were getting into cartel hands. Whether this was a good idea is highly debatable because guns are not dime bags of heroin. (Wait a minute, does that mean guns are different from other things? That they do kill people? Oh the horror!) What I see here is an operation that went bad in a big way, not a massive conspiracy from the top of the government. In fact I'd say it was the other way around; the guys at the top weren't doing their oversight jobs properly.

Holder is being a fucktard though. At the very least he should have known better. An operation of this sort that involves smuggling guns into what for all intents and purposes is an active war zone requires the utmost care. Holder is saying he didn't even know anything about it besides the name of the operation. In that case he is incompetent. If he did know about it and had his staff bless it then he is lying.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Except it isn't some sort of sting operation where they follow the guns. BATF agents were DIRECTLY ORDERED to not trace where the guns went after they were sold, or to track where they might be. This was the equivalent of throwing bottled messages into the ocean, hoping they'd turn up again.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah that was one really fucking stupid operation. Stupidity bordering on malevolence. Oh well. Enough with the Occam: just suggest malevolence. For some reason, this maxim started working better in the recent years and gets greater predictive power all the time

[CaptainChewbacca]

Thing is we can punish them for stupidity OR malevolence.