EU financial crisis: Finland rejects majority proposal

[Tiriol]

I really do not get people. First they rail against the bad banks, then when Europe tries to regulate bad banks they rail against Europe.

Question: How are they regulating bad banks?

They are discouraging the hedge fonds and bank speculation with a new tax on financial transactions - which even if it fails to discourage things it will help fund the recovery. Likewise, if there is a clear vision on a unified Europe or a fiscal union, which there appears to be then that will also lead to more developments.

A question, if I may: what do you mean by unified Europe? Europe with independent states, but who work with common goals and common rules that are more tightly enforced than currently? Some form of USA-like union/superstate? Or something Soviet Union -style?

The problem with saying "unified Europe" is that it instantly conjures up images of one big state where old nation states are merely little, at best autonomous, parts. And that might be the big boogeyman of which everyone seems to be afraid. They don't want to lose their independence or become mere states like in the US.

[Starglider]

The only countries on the chart which aren't in deep trouble are Canada and Germany, and that's only IF we act quickly and correctly to deal with our existing issues before they blow up.

Canada & Germany are probably screwed too, because those figures don't include bank issued CDS or off-balance-sheet (shadow banking) liabilities, such as the chained rehypothecation scam that the MF Global mess is shining some light on. Also it's arguable the Canadaian property prices have more downside risk (than the US or G20 average).

There's a line between recognising an event and acting appropriately, and actively causing that event to occur. Now - define where that line is. :V

Who cares as long as it's profitable. In any case those governments are only facing difficulties because Germany refuses to let the ECB monetise their bonds, so obviously the Germans are the real villains here.

[Stark]

Who cares as long as it's profitable.

Yeah, about that. Some people believe in, y'know, democracy, and not your buddies.

[Starglider]

Some people believe in, y'know, democracy

The financial sector are huge supporters of democracy. I mean, you're just talking about it, but banks, insurance companies and private funds are making all-time record campaign contributions! Clearly they love democracy so much that they're happy to buy a huge piece of it.

[Thanas]

A question, if I may: what do you mean by unified Europe? Europe with independent states, but who work with common goals and common rules that are more tightly enforced than currently? Some form of USA-like union/superstate? Or something Soviet Union -style?

The problem with saying "unified Europe" is that it instantly conjures up images of one big state where old nation states are merely little, at best autonomous, parts. And that might be the big boogeyman of which everyone seems to be afraid. They don't want to lose their independence or become mere states like in the US.

To be honest, Soviet Union style brings up images of one state dominating the rest. That being said, I think we will see a gradual evolution over the next decades into a superstate. I think it will look more like a confederation at first and eventually be a federal state (not saying like the US because that would require that a lot of regional and cultural identities to be amalgated or assimilated).

[Tiriol]

A question, if I may: what do you mean by unified Europe? Europe with independent states, but who work with common goals and common rules that are more tightly enforced than currently? Some form of USA-like union/superstate? Or something Soviet Union -style?

The problem with saying "unified Europe" is that it instantly conjures up images of one big state where old nation states are merely little, at best autonomous, parts. And that might be the big boogeyman of which everyone seems to be afraid. They don't want to lose their independence or become mere states like in the US.

To be honest, Soviet Union style brings up images of one state dominating the rest. That being said, I think we will see a gradual evolution over the next decades into a superstate. I think it will look more like a confederation at first and eventually be a federal state (not saying like the US because that would require that a lot of regional and cultural identities to be amalgated or assimilated).

OK, just wanted to make sure. I've seen people throwing around the term "unified Europe" without actually saying what it would mean, so it has become a very strange term to hear because nobody seems to know what they mean by it.

In other news, Prime Minister Katainen wishes that Finland can remain part of the ESM and tha some compromise can be reached, as reported by YLE News.

PM: Finland wants to remain in rescue fund
published Fri Dec 9 08:31 PM, updated Fri Dec 9 09:12 PM

Prime Minister Jyrki Katainen says he hopes that a means can be negotiated whereby Finland can remain within the European Stability Mechanism (ESM).

Finland says that changes in the basic agreement on the permanent new rescue fund, waiving the requirement that all eurozone states approve any ESM intervention, contravene its own constitution.

At a press conference in Brussels on Friday evening, Katainen said that Finland should remain in the ESM, as it has been involved in creating it from the beginning.

If the shape of the ESM changes, then the situation must be reconsidered, he said, striking a more conditional tone than Finance Minister Jutta Urpilainen did earlier in the day.

"Finland wants to remain a full EU member and therefore work is now underway so that everyone can accept principles that are important to others," he said.

"The ESM is very important to the stability of the euro and therefore we want to be part of it. There is no uncertainty about that in this government," the PM added.

The ESM is expected to be in place by next summer, offering a new 500-billion-euro credit line for eurozone states in distress.

On Tuesday, the Finnish government faces an interpellation by the Finns Party over its handling of the eurozone crisis.

While I think that there's genuine wish to remain part of the greater European community, Katainen is also playing a game of politics within Finnish political scene: to admit at this point that Finland's needs are not served best by the EU would give ammunition to True Finns Party and would also be a somewhat embarassing thing for the parties who have called for tighter integration and better EU relations the most (namely National Coalition and Social Democrats, who both happen to be part of the government right now). We shall see what future holds, because not even Katainen and Urpilainen can wriggle out of the Parliament's committee's decision that changing how the decisions are made would be against the Constitution.