Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

Post by mr friendly guy »

In my own country no less
AMA warning after Christian group Set Right performs exorcisms on two-year-old


EXORCISTS who say depression and schizophrenia are demons that can be cast out, are treating children as young as two for possession, a claim the Australian Medical Association has dismissed as unscientific and potentially harmful.
Perth-based Set Right is a non-denominational Christian ministry. Their Leader, known as ‘Apostle’ Michelle Pecoult, says they’ve seen a “massive rise” in possessions, and now exorcise four or five people a day. She said people find them online and through psychic fairs and they also visit schools and prisons.

The Set Right website notes that depression is a "common low ranking demon" while schizophrenia is "another demon we have met often and evicted".

"We've removed schizophrenia. People have been healed of it… God is greater than any medical doctor, he’s greater than me. We’ve seen absolute physical healing… and people in a major state of depression,” Ms Pecoult said.

"Depression can be a symptom of a demonic power being in there. Jesus dealt with lunatic spirits, they’re real. You can’t get rid of them by medication. You have to renew your mind."

Dr Choong-Siew Yong, a practising psychiatrist who represents psychiatry on the AMA's Federal Council said he was concerned about untrained practitioners making claims that contradict the science. He warned that claiming someone was possessed could reinforce their delusions and stop them getting proper care.

"There is an enormous amount of research that has discredited the idea that people with psychiatric conditions such as depression and schizophrenia are because of demonic possession. That’s a very old idea, not held up by science," he said.

"We’d be concerned that people were missing out on reliable, well-evidenced, modern medical treatment.

"Some people with psychotic illnesses do believe that they’re possessed, or have strange religious ideas… but when they’re assessed by a doctor there will be a diagnosis of mental illness."

Ms Pecoult says her team has intensive training through the Holy Spirit to treat people and worked in conjunction with her husband Vince who has a psychology degree.

"The two should go together," she said. She also emphasised that they do not take payment for exorcisms but do it to "glorify God".

Mr Pecoult said he studied psychology but then the Bible taught him that there might be a spiritual root to mental health issues. He said they counsel people after 'deliverances'.

"The casting out of demons is the easy part of the process," he said.

Ms Pecoult said the two-year-old child they treated was “unaware of what was going on".

"The two-year-old was in a normal play situation and suddenly he was unable to move, speak, do anything… he started growling and snarling," she said.

"(The demon) was told to leave and in 20 minutes he had left. The child didn’t know."

She said while sometimes they have to do "emergency" procedures, generally they like to talk to the person first.

She said they did not use crucifixes but prayed and that they often witness levitations and contortions.

The Catholic Church has warned of an increase in possessions and the need for exorcisms, with some priests blaming popular culture series such as Twilight and Harry Potter despite there being no possession or exorcism shown in either series of books and films.

On Sunday 60 Minutes interviewed three American teen exorcists and their mentor, the Reverend Bob Larson, who says he has 100 teams of exorcists travelling the world and visiting countries as far flung as Australia.

News.com.au spoke to WA former police chaplain and Anglican priest Barry May, who is also an author and 'freelance exorcist', about that program.

He says the 'teen exorcists' obviously did not have the experience needed to do the job, and that to do it properly requires far more investigation.

He says while demand for exorcisms was on the rise, he would only have done 25 exorcisms over 40 years. He is approached far more often but prefers to offer people the "ministry of healing".

He said most people he treats have been turned away by the Catholic Church or told it would take a year to get an exorcism approved.

Dr Yong said most churches made the right decision when faced with someone who believed there was a devil in them or in a loved one.

"I've had patients who've been members of churches and at some stage have either asked for an exorcism or seen someone about possession and often the church refers them to a psychologist or psychiatrist. In most cases churches make the appropriate decision," he said.

If you need help or someone to talk to call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/ama-war ... z1r262odKS
Here is the link to their website.
http://www.set-right.com/?page_id=882

I wonder whether this will lead to another Anneliese Michel of which her story was popularised in the movie The exorcism of Emily Rose.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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"We've removed schizophrenia. People have been healed of it…God is greater than any medical doctor, he’s greater than me. We’ve seen absolute physical healing… and people in a major state of depression,” Ms Pecoult said.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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article in the OP wrote:He said most people he treats have been turned away by the Catholic Church or told it would take a year to get an exorcism approved.

Dr Yong said most churches made the right decision when faced with someone who believed there was a devil in them or in a loved one.

"I've had patients who've been members of churches and at some stage have either asked for an exorcism or seen someone about possession and often the church refers them to a psychologist or psychiatrist. In most cases churches make the appropriate decision," he said.
At least RCC isn't endorsing this bullshit.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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WOW...just when you thought all that demon posession shit went out in the late 80's! I had no idea this was still an active part of their culture.

When I was very young and part of an occult church (left in '92 and now a born again atheist! :mrgreen:) I remeber seeing an "exorcism" where my dad, the pastor, and I believe one other "deacon" was there casting a demon out of a guy who was renting a room from us. If memeory serves me correctly, they cast out several demons...alcohol, drugs, lust and etcetera (you know...all the "fun" stuff).

The most vivid memory I have is this guy was sitting in a chair, hissing (like a big cat) and cursing. My dad was holding him in the chair while the deacon and pastor spoke "in tongues" and exercised him. How my dad held this guy down is still somewhat of a mystery to me...dude was huge and built like a brick shithouse. Only thing I can think of now is that this guy was under a suggestion (like hypnosis?) wherin he believed that my dad was channeling the power of God or something thru his arms and couldn't move. Or, my dad was a lot stronger than he looked.

I think I was like 7. It was a wierd site. I am guessing the guy was a drug addict and went bezerk or something.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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someone_else wrote:
article in the OP wrote:He said most people he treats have been turned away by the Catholic Church or told it would take a year to get an exorcism approved.

Dr Yong said most churches made the right decision when faced with someone who believed there was a devil in them or in a loved one.

"I've had patients who've been members of churches and at some stage have either asked for an exorcism or seen someone about possession and often the church refers them to a psychologist or psychiatrist. In most cases churches make the appropriate decision," he said.
At least RCC isn't endorsing this bullshit.
At least a few years back the RCC still endorsed exorcism. They however were more careful in who they decided were demonically possessed, as opposed to having a psychiatric illness. There was an article posted here a few years back where the local priest tried an exorcism, IIRC it was in Romania and the person being exorcised was injured.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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I just had a very uncharitable thought about trolling these guys ala candid camera style. They are in my home city after all.

But one way to test their validity is to set up a "control" test and let them decide whether the person being exorcised really is possessed or not. Have a guy pretend. Since they love speaking in tongues, just have the person being possessed use either a) a rare real world language or b) a constructed language, like Klingon. It would be amusing.

Come to think of it, this type of hoax exposing people's gullibility sounds like something James Randi would do, after all he did the Carlos Hoax in the past.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

Post by cadbrowser »

mr friendly guy wrote:I just had a very uncharitable thought about trolling these guys ala candid camera style. They are in my home city after all.

But one way to test their validity is to set up a "control" test and let them decide whether the person being exorcised really is possessed or not. Have a guy pretend. Since they love speaking in tongues, just have the person being possessed use either a) a rare real world language or b) a constructed language, like Klingon. It would be amusing.

Come to think of it, this type of hoax exposing people's gullibility sounds like something James Randi would do, after all he did the Carlos Hoax in the past.
In my experience the possesed do not generally "speak in tongues", they hiss and growl. The idea of speaking in tongues is based on the concept that the "Holy Spirit" is being channeled thru the speaker. So it would be the one who is casting out the demon to be speaking in tongues.

Just to clarify my experience with "Speaking in Tongues" is that which is described below:
Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
But, like I said, that's just my experience...with the exception of the movies and books where a demon may speak sumerian or some other ancient languange. (Glossolalia vs Xenoglossy perhaps?)

But I do agree, it would be amusing.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

Post by Grumman »

cadbrowser wrote:
Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Can we have the fake possessee trying to exorcise the Holy Ghost from the exorcist?
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

Post by cadbrowser »

LMAO @ Grumman.

If you sit and think about it, being possessed doesn't have to be exlusive to demons or malevolent beings. Technically any Christian that claims the power of speaking in tongues is possesed by a spirit!
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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cadbrowser wrote:
In my experience the possesed do not generally "speak in tongues", they hiss and growl. The idea of speaking in tongues is based on the concept that the "Holy Spirit" is being channeled thru the speaker. So it would be the one who is casting out the demon to be speaking in tongues.
Fair enough. Its still possible to troll them. We can even do a documentary beforehand saying that speaking in tongues is usually in reference to the Holy Spirit and that "The Exorcist" trope of speaking in tongues (aka English backwards) was a Hollywood convention. We can still do it to see if they realise the demonically possessed shouldn't be speaking so.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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I don't really believe in this possession crap. It's simply scientifically unverifiable. More likely all of them had been doing it for fraud.

Get a 'possessed' guy, strap him to a chair in a room in the countryside where no one would know what would transpire, but instead of an exorcism with a bible and cross, pull out a Desert Eagle and tell that idiot if he don't quit fooling around and confess who paid him to act like this, it will be his brains that's going to leave his body.

I would bet that guy would be 'exorcised' in less than 10 seconds.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

Post by Alkaloid »

Unless he is, you know, actually mentally ill like the people the article is talking about. These people aren't normally con artists, they are more trouble than that because they actually believe they are helping people, and are doing them all sorts of harm in the process.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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SpaceMarine93 wrote:I don't really believe in this possession crap. It's simply scientifically unverifiable. More likely all of them had been doing it for fraud.

Get a 'possessed' guy, strap him to a chair in a room in the countryside where no one would know what would transpire, but instead of an exorcism with a bible and cross, pull out a Desert Eagle and tell that idiot if he don't quit fooling around and confess who paid him to act like this, it will be his brains that's going to leave his body.

I would bet that guy would be 'exorcised' in less than 10 seconds.
And you're an idiot. Some examples of possession refer to cases of high fever, which suggest an ongoing infection manifestating itself as delirium.

And trust me, you REALLY don't want to know what can go on with a person suffering from delirum. It gets fucking creepy.

Damn it, I still get hairs standing on the back of my neck when I remember that dude telling me to ask that long hair Indian nurse standing behind me to walk away and don't disturb me. There's also some amazing flight or fight responses that can go on in such cases. Dude who can't walk and can barely stand managing to run 1 meters before collapsing, then crawling away for help because the devil was coming after his life.


It gets even more creepy when a person has DIVC, and is staring at you with bloodshot eyes while grinning away at something behind you. Delusions of grandeur also manifest itself and he tore the hand restrainer apart. Literally pulled until it broke. Luckily, this display of superhuman might was a few hours after I tackled him back to bed. THANK GOD I didn't work nights then! I won't want to imagine what might had happened if flight or fight actually kicked in, since there would had been no way of actually restraining him down without the risk of serious injury due to his condition.

I know this is a thread derailment but just had to let it out since I been nursing a steady series of mentally confused people recently and I'm a bit concerned with the church company my mum, a mentally ill patient hangs out with. A bit too much of "spirits are amongst us" and well... they and you aren't really helping with my state of mind.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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Alkaloid wrote:Unless he is, you know, actually mentally ill like the people the article is talking about. These people aren't normally con artists, they are more trouble than that because they actually believe they are helping people, and are doing them all sorts of harm in the process.
While I cannot disagree wholeheartedly, I am reminded though that the placebo effect that is being utilized with exorcism isn't in and of itself harmful. That being said, I will limit that statement to "possessions" that are NOT attributed to mental illnesses or infections caused by bacteria/viruses.

Casting out the demon of "lust" so that a man/woman doesn't cheat on their partner is a bastion of hope that can have positive outcomes on some individuals because of their beliefs in that it would work. Even if it's temporary. Not saying it is right; just implying it can be just as effective (if not more so) as a gun to the head.
SpaceMarine93 wrote:I don't really believe in this possession crap. It's simply scientifically unverifiable. More likely all of them had been doing it for fraud.
I don't see anyone that has posted thus far as saying possession is real...so I don't see what point you are trying to make. I absolutely disagree with you that fraud is involved, with the exception of someone who would exorcise for profit...but I am not aware of anyone doing that. As noted before me, those that are "possessed" have real issues, wether it be drug induced, mentally ill, or viral/bacterial infection causing delirium/dementia.
mr friendly guy wrote:Fair enough. Its still possible to troll them. We can even do a documentary beforehand saying that speaking in tongues is usually in reference to the Holy Spirit and that "The Exorcist" trope of speaking in tongues (aka English backwards) was a Hollywood convention. We can still do it to see if they realise the demonically possessed shouldn't be speaking so.
Remember that I would not claim expertise...I have limited experience (1 witnessed exorcism and countless others heard about from the church I used to attend 20 years ago) so I wouldn't discount the idea that a possesed person couldn't speak in tongues, I've just never heard of it. But yet, it is possible to troll them. We would first have to find out for sure that there aren't documented (i.e. video recordings) cases where a demon speaking thru a person is using another known language. Otherwise we could conclusively deduct that yes...it is strictly a Hollywood convention.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

Post by Lord Zentei »

PeZook wrote:
"We've removed schizophrenia. People have been healed of it…God is greater than any medical doctor, he’s greater than me. We’ve seen absolute physical healing… and people in a major state of depression,” Ms Pecoult said.
God: Has to send his son to Earth in the flesh in order to cure a couple people of leprosy

Medical doctors: leprosy? Oh, it's all but exterminated nowadays
Yeah, and they don't get worse afterwards either:
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12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.<snip>
Granted, this was a scene where he was making an analogy to criticize his own generation, but nonetheless.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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(Double post, deleted)
Last edited by SpaceMarine93 on 2012-04-08 06:14am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

Post by SpaceMarine93 »

PainRack wrote:
SpaceMarine93 wrote:I don't really believe in this possession crap. It's simply scientifically unverifiable. More likely all of them had been doing it for fraud.

Get a 'possessed' guy, strap him to a chair in a room in the countryside where no one would know what would transpire, but instead of an exorcism with a bible and cross, pull out a Desert Eagle and tell that idiot if he don't quit fooling around and confess who paid him to act like this, it will be his brains that's going to leave his body.

I would bet that guy would be 'exorcised' in less than 10 seconds.
And you're an idiot. Some examples of possession refer to cases of high fever, which suggest an ongoing infection manifestating itself as delirium.

And trust me, you REALLY don't want to know what can go on with a person suffering from delirum. It gets fucking creepy.

Damn it, I still get hairs standing on the back of my neck when I remember that dude telling me to ask that long hair Indian nurse standing behind me to walk away and don't disturb me. There's also some amazing flight or fight responses that can go on in such cases. Dude who can't walk and can barely stand managing to run 1 meters before collapsing, then crawling away for help because the devil was coming after his life.


It gets even more creepy when a person has DIVC, and is staring at you with bloodshot eyes while grinning away at something behind you. Delusions of grandeur also manifest itself and he tore the hand restrainer apart. Literally pulled until it broke. Luckily, this display of superhuman might was a few hours after I tackled him back to bed. THANK GOD I didn't work nights then! I won't want to imagine what might had happened if flight or fight actually kicked in, since there would had been no way of actually restraining him down without the risk of serious injury due to his condition.

I know this is a thread derailment but just had to let it out since I been nursing a steady series of mentally confused people recently and I'm a bit concerned with the church company my mum, a mentally ill patient hangs out with. A bit too much of "spirits are amongst us" and well... they and you aren't really helping with my state of mind.
:banghead:

After careful re-consideration, yes, I agree that is an ineffective approach to the problem. Sorry.

But I would sincerely suggest you get your mother and that mentally ill patient as far away from that church group as possible.
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

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She said that... they often witness levitations and contortions.
I get that most of the stuff these exorcists see, stuff in the vein of "snarling and growling", is stuff that normal people can do if delirius, under the power of suggestion, etc. So, charitably, these people are very misguided Christians who believe they are actually casting demons out of people. But claiming to witness levitation? Often? This woman is either lying or needs some serious mental health services herself!
...Former police chaplain and Anglican priest Barry May... a 'freelance exorcist'... says the 'teen exorcists' obviously did not have the experience needed to do the job, and that to do it properly requires far more investigation. He says while demand for exorcisms was on the rise, he would only have done 25 exorcisms over 40 years. He is approached far more often but prefers to offer people the "ministry of healing". He said most people he treats have been turned away by the Catholic Church or told it would take a year to get an exorcism approved.
For some reason I find this really funny. We have the exorcists from the article making a case for how they aren't just crazy people because demons are real. Then this Anglican exorcist comes along and says, nope, those teens are crazy, but I also do exorcisms and am definitely not crazy. Except that the Catholic church, which also also does exorcisms, thinks I might be a little crazy...
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Re: Who needs psychiatrist, when you can have exorcisms

Post by Simon_Jester »

It is kind of funny, yeah. Although it's also a matter of degree: the Catholic Church believes in demons, but also has a tradition of scholarship and basic intelligence, they're not all dimwits or raving fundies. Few of them are really even anti-intellectual, except when you're treading directly on their turf. So in many cases their policies are at least partly moderated by people who aren't idiots, and know that things like treatable mental illness exist. The Anglican guy, well, the Anglican church is in some ways "Catholicism for British people," so go figure.

Whereas the evangelical Protestant denominations- there's no real tradition of scholarship or thought-out theology. It's all from the heart, from the gut, make it up as you go along. So many of their doctrines are basically excuses to keep doing what they instinctively want to do anyway. Combine that with anti-intellectualism and a stronger conviction that modernity is 'oppressing' them, and you get this kind of thing.
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