WV GOP state delegate proposes compulsory SF for schools

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Oh boy. You know, in between the Honor Harrington fanwhores and the fact that Baen is still in business, I thought I was in the minority.

[Simon_Jester]

You need to get out more.

Baen has a large slice of the "space opera" market, but they don't even own that, let alone everything. What Baen does have is a pretty good Internet presence, the company having embraced that before Baen's death.

[Connor MacLeod]

Asimov's problem is that his stories are very cerebral. Call it a glorified logic puzzle if you like, but there's a certain delight in being a kid who can grasp the logic puzzle that drives a story; that's where a lot of the fun of things like detective stories comes from. Asimov, though, is good for engaging smart kids who are already in the habit of wrestling with and enjoying idea-driven stories, not so good for engaging kids who don't already have that knack.

Some are, and some aren't. I mean some of his EMPIRE stories (at least the oens I remember reading) didn't strike me as cerebreal as the 'detective mystery' Robot stories, or some of the latter Foundation ones. And then there's all those short stories (robot and non) which can vary in scope or purpose. Asimov was a very diverse writer in that regard.

Does Weber provide any hint that he is even aware of the discrepancy? I mean Honor ragging about something one moment and praising it the next, sure, that happens to real life people too. Does the writer have another character acknowledge she's being stupid, or drop a hint in the narrative? It smacks of bad writing.

Based on comments others have given me when I've talked about the series and its flaws, it may be that Weber has simply given up caring about the series and its only his way of earning a paycheck. If oyu go through some of the infodumpts of his postings and shit you can kind of see why - on the baen forums (and related) where he interacts, you get the image of a very vocal, technophilliac group of people who basically get into conflict with the author over the way he established the tech base, or trying to 'outsmart' him and come up with some new tech twist. Sometimes to me it seems very confrontational/adversarial, and I suspect having to deal with that for years would ruin any author's writing/passion for the setting.

It would also explain why the series has simply devolved into technophillia - because there's a hugely vocal segment of the (visible, at least to him) fandom who crave that. The rest may simply be brand loyalty, if you've followed a series for a long time it can be hard for some people to give it up (partly out of forlorn hope for a change, partly out of inertia.) I've actually seen this in a few other series I liked (the antia blake series was fun early on but it didn't take long to turn into vampire harem porn, which kind of destroyed any value the setting had.)

Oh boy. You know, in between the Honor Harrington fanwhores and the fact that Baen is still in business, I thought I was in the minority.

Like I said not everything Baen is bad, it just seems (subjectively to me, and my tastes) much of it. HV is borderline for me (mainyl because some of the non-weber stuff, eg Eric Flint, is actually enjoyable, as are the anthologies which often get away from a purely MILITARY setting.) and I'm still a fan of David Drake and Lois McMaster Bujold.

I'd love to see science fiction that doesn't bother with numbers, I'd really do. Basically, give me a writer who is actually a writer, not an overspecialized idiot with a political agenda to screech about, and I'll just... forgive his other flaws, I really will.

ITs easy to write fiction without numbers, as plenty of fiction can simply use examples/descriptions to do that (the majority of fiction actually does, with few if any numbers.) The Deathstalker novels (space opera I still happen to like, even if its not super-deep thematically) are a prime example. Its a VERY hard series to quantify to any depth (compared to say, Star Wars or 40K) but its still a very enjoyable series and it never really impacts the story.

The way (western, at least.) fiction is set up though, what we get is largely driven by preconceptions (EG what they think fans want, such as based on gauging the internet) and profitability (esp what they think of how far they can push brand loyalty vs quality.)

[Simon_Jester]

Some are, and some aren't. I mean some of his EMPIRE stories (at least the oens I remember reading) didn't strike me as cerebreal as the 'detective mystery' Robot stories, or some of the latter Foundation ones. And then there's all those short stories (robot and non) which can vary in scope or purpose. Asimov was a very diverse writer in that regard.

Not all his stories are logic puzzles. But the early Foundation novels kind of are (Foundation is threatened, threat evaporates without any serious violence because logically this threat is not sustainable). The only really dramatic case of deliberate action in the Federation's early history is the shutdown of that Anacreonian battlecruiser.

It would also explain why the series has simply devolved into technophillia - because there's a hugely vocal segment of the (visible, at least to him) fandom who crave that. The rest may simply be brand loyalty, if you've followed a series for a long time it can be hard for some people to give it up (partly out of forlorn hope for a change, partly out of inertia.) I've actually seen this in a few other series I liked (the antia blake series was fun early on but it didn't take long to turn into vampire harem porn, which kind of destroyed any value the setting had.)

Several books of good heroic experiences with a character can make you care what happens to them even if the books aren't that stellar. I don't think I've bought an Honorverse novel in years, but I still skim the new ones when I have time.

But... yeah, that's suspiciously plausible. Come to think of it, most of the good Honorverse material (say, books one through at most eight) were published in the early to mid-'90s. He published the first eight Honor Harrington novels in the series from 1992-98. The end of that period was when fandom communities on the Internet really started to take off. At the same time the series started to degenerate into tech-fixation... you may really have something here.

Note that he published eight books in six years then, and has only done 5-10* books in the 15 years or so since. This is very much consistent with

*Depending on how you count spinoffs and collaborations. He's done eight Honorverse novels since 1998 by himself, and three or four collaborations that I suspect the other guy did most of the work on. Of course, the books are also about twice as long as they used to be, so that's probably half the problem right there... [rolls eyes]

[Connor MacLeod]

Series where good guys are an alliance of jingoist monarchies,

So having a monarchy = EVIL automatically? What the fuck kind of logic is that? Fiction has had plenty of Monarchies or similar where that, suprrisingly, would not be the case. If manticore has problems, its the way its economics system is contrived and portrayed, which is more a problem in the sense its BORING and presents no real tension. The worst you can say is that he basically rants TAXES R BAD in a very simplistic manner.

RELIGION makes you strong

Which I gather is a reference to the Graysons, except that you would note the 'heroic' Graysons are always portrayed as progressive (EG getting less fanatical) whilst the bad guys (EG Masadans, conservative Graysons) are painted as the bad guys for resisting progressive notions (like women could hold power, being extremely fundamentalist and conservative, etc.) If you're going to criticize something, could you do it in some other manner than broad, simplistic strokes?

, every center- or left-leaning party is populated by imbeciles,

You mean like Cathy Montaigne? She's become a rather prominent character in the latter novels (she's rather fanatically 'left' in the HV in fact.) Oh and after they got rid of Pierre nad saint just the Republic of Haven did a rapid turn around into GREAT AND NOBLE defenders. Quite a few of them are NOT imbeciles, and they are hardly RIGHT LEANING. I could also point out there are a number of left leaning idiots too in manticore politics.. did you forget the Conservative Association?

again if there's problems with the HV in this regard, its less Weber tries to go with any blatant agendas in that the setting had all the interest and drama sucked out of it so they're dull.

gun owning is Holy™

Because as we know GUN OWNERS ARE BAD. Are we sure we're actually analyzing fiction rather than simply going down a pre-prepared checklist of talking points, because I'm not sure you're even making an effort to make your comments relevant at this point.

and both main enemies are parodies of European socialist state is not right wing?

At this point I feel like the conversation has actually diverged from a discussion of the HV novels to some soert of alternate reality where only your mind can follow.

Also of note, decision by left-leaning guy who found himself in power to turn down military spending on FUCKHUGE military and instead to invest in technological edge is one single thing that saved his country, and gave Manticore source of free manpower to continue the war. Yet he is still vilified, disgraced, and shat upon, and it's jingoist right-wingers who grabbed power from him that get to reap rewards from his reforms - despite voting against them.

Who are we talking about? Janacek? You have to be more specific if I'm supposed to understand which person you're talking about.


How a character can in one chapter tear her political enemy for decommissioning obsolete ships, then in battle several chapters later say few remaining obsolete ships she has are only junk weighting her modern ones down, and never reflect on how idiotic her speeches were (despite her being supposedly military genius) I will never know.[/spoiler][/quote]

[Connor MacLeod]

Several books of good heroic experiences with a character can make you care what happens to them even if the books aren't that stellar. I don't think I've bought an Honorverse novel in years, but I still skim the new ones when I have time.

But... yeah, that's suspiciously plausible. Come to think of it, most of the good Honorverse material (say, books one through at most eight) were published in the early to mid-'90s. He published the first eight Honor Harrington novels in the series from 1992-98. The end of that period was when fandom communities on the Internet really started to take off. At the same time the series started to degenerate into tech-fixation... you may really have something here.

Note that he published eight books in six years then, and has only done 5-10* books in the 15 years or so since. This is very much consistent with

*Depending on how you count spinoffs and collaborations. He's done eight Honorverse novels since 1998 by himself, and three or four collaborations that I suspect the other guy did most of the work on. Of course, the books are also about twice as long as they used to be, so that's probably half the problem right there... [rolls eyes]

For all its flaws, its pretty silly to try to lump the Honorverse into a single category just because some people don't like it,m because there are good things and BAD things about it. Like with most fiction I've read, actually. Its quality has dropped (dramatically) over the years, but if one is going to target RIGHT WING GOOD, LEFT WING BAD there are FAR better targets in the Baen library to choose from (Watch on the Rhine, for example. Or many of Kratman's novels for example.)

In fact the only thing you can generalize about the Honorverse (and this by sticking stirctly to the latter half of the series or thereabouts) is that its completely dull. Anything passionate, fun, dramatic or interesting has literally been sucked out of it. The last few books have had buildup promises, but are utterly uninteresting ventures that mostly devote wordage to pointless detail rather than plot or character development. What is ironic is that if OTHER authors write in the setting (EG anthologies) it does not feel nearly as dull to me. Heck even Weber staying from the main plot is more interesting in short story than he is in main novels.)

I actually feel weber needs to turn the reins over to someone else as far as writing goes.. let the setting just be a sandbox and stop writing the main books, because its the main plot that really kills the series (at least under his guidance it is.) The entire Solarian League arc of things is ample proof of this.

[Simon_Jester]

The big problem is that Weber is putting into publication stuff that ought to stay online, or in his notes. He's explaining character motivations in excruciating detail, explaining political context that is irrelevant, explaining details of why a new missile warhead punches harder, and so on. I think you're right to blame the fanbase for that.

You mean like Cathy Montaigne? She's become a rather prominent character in the latter novels (she's rather fanatically 'left' in the HV in fact.)

To be fair, Cathy Montaigne was invented by Eric Flint, in large part because he needed a functional, intelligent left-wing politician. Weber hadn't provided any.

and both main enemies are parodies of European socialist state is not right wing?

At this point I feel like the conversation has actually diverged from a discussion of the HV novels to some soert of alternate reality where only your mind can follow.

I fail to see how the paralytic-confederation that is the Solarian League counts as a parody of European socialism, too...

[Connor MacLeod]

The big problem is that Weber is putting into publication stuff that ought to stay online, or in his notes. He's explaining character motivations in excruciating detail, explaining political context that is irrelevant, explaining details of why a new missile warhead punches harder, and so on. I think you're right to blame the fanbase for that.

Blame that on the profitability factor, really. Its probably more the brand slavery at this point than anyhting sustaining the series. Its a pity, because Weber (back then) had I thought alot of good ideas. I liked his fantasy stuff, and the Path of the Fury books, but they never went anywhere. He's literally become tied down by the honorverse I think, and that may even be one reason why he's lost the passion for it.

He needs to have other people writing in the setting other than him I think, and he probably needed to do this long ago. Weber isn't bad as a world builder, but I think he lacks in the writing department. Which is not unsuual in an author (I think Tolkien was the same way.)

To be fair, Cathy Montaigne was invented by Eric Flint, in large part because he needed a functional, intelligent left-wing politician. Weber hadn't provided any.

He didn't actually forbid such a character either, and Cathy has actually contributed to the setting even in Weber's own works. And that case doesn't apply in the Haven examples, I might add, which weber HAS had.

I would also further point out that the implication is that Weber's characters are generally one dimensinonal. This is debatable.. he's actually managed to write even his antagonists as being something other than 'HUR HUR I R EVIL' mustache twirlers. Again, he's great at building the stuff, but he invariably fumbles when it comes to the execution (which is why Haven, the Solarian League, etc. really don't come across as credible threats. well that and the technophilia.)

Even the Mesans have their appeal, even if in the way they combine that creepy racial superiority with how normal seeming it can be portrayed in their POV.

I fail to see how the paralytic-confederation that is the Solarian League counts as a parody of European socialism, too...

Well like I said, I see the Solarian League as Space America. Corrupt, owned by corporate money, facade of 'DEMOCRATIC principles', and generally a bully to other nations that oppose or disagree with it.

[Zaune]

I fail to see how the paralytic-confederation that is the Solarian League counts as a parody of European socialism, too...

It kind of works if you assume that Weber knows fuck-all about what he's actually parodying besides what he picked up from watching Fox News.

And I think you're all getting worked up over nothing anyway. Of the two dozen-odd books and plays I actually studied at school I can think of one books and two plays that I actually enjoyed and would willingly read/watch again in my spare time. Nothing destroys someone's appreciation for a book like having to write five hundred words on some tedious bit of subtext that the author never even bloody thought about in the first place, and don't even get me started on the practice of having a classful of bored teenagers read the various characters in a play...

Well, except for when we had to do The Glass Menagerie, because I identified rather deeply with the character of Tom Wingfield and took to reading his part with a degree of enthusiasm that rather alarmed my English teacher.

[Simon_Jester]

Blame that on the profitability factor, really. Its probably more the brand slavery at this point than anyhting sustaining the series. Its a pity, because Weber (back then) had I thought alot of good ideas. I liked his fantasy stuff, and the Path of the Fury books, but they never went anywhere. He's literally become tied down by the honorverse I think, and that may even be one reason why he's lost the passion for it.

I think he really enjoyed it when he got to write the Armageddon Reef novels. Unfortunately they wound up having the same tone as Honor Harrington books, only with blackpowder and sailing ships.

He may just be getting past his literary prime; he's been writing actively for decades.

I fail to see how the paralytic-confederation that is the Solarian League counts as a parody of European socialism, too...

Well like I said, I see the Solarian League as Space America. Corrupt, owned by corporate money, facade of 'DEMOCRATIC principles', and generally a bully to other nations that oppose or disagree with it.

I see the League as... not really like anything that's ever existed. It's sort of like Qing China- complacent and technologically stagnant, but so huge and powerful that nothing in its immediate neighborhood can exploit its weaknesses, or prevent it from gradually expanding its frontiers into disorganized and primitive regions.

As to being a US-analog: Part of the reason Weber has the Sollies be such a mess politically is that there is no real legislative oversight, so the bureaucracy is free to screw up and become generally useless and petrified. And corporations are often in charge on the periphery because they're the most flexible entities in the state, the ones most prepared to absorb and control new territories without being held back by old political interests.

I might call that similar to the US today with the sheer fucking legislative deadlock we now experience, but Weber had intended to write the League this way since well before that problem became apparent. It's just as likely that he's drawing on historical examples like the Polish Sejm.


Come to think of it, there's an analogy to the way the Old Republic is portrayed in Star Wars Episodes I and II: the Senate is useless, individual planets have a lot of separate authority with little overarching federal government, and the Trade Federation can do more or less whatever the fuck they want. Only one, there's no Jedi-equivalent trying to keep things from becoming a total basket case. And two, unlike the Republic the Solarian League does have a large military, at least relative to the size of anyone else in the galaxy.

I fail to see how the paralytic-confederation that is the Solarian League counts as a parody of European socialism, too...

It kind of works if you assume that Weber knows fuck-all about what he's actually parodying besides what he picked up from watching Fox News.

No, mere ignorance wouldn't explain it. The League just looks nothing like the Fox News version of SOCIALIST EU. Instead of a big central government dictating everything there is no central government, instead of corporations being prevented from using FREE MARKET to improve society, corporations can do pretty much whatever they want, and so on.

[Stark]

Oh boy. You know, in between the Honor Harrington fanwhores and the fact that Baen is still in business, I thought I was in the minority.

If you read boards like SDN it can seem that way, but all kinds of normal people read science fiction and watch science fiction shows without knee-jerking against characters and themes and demanding MOAR BATTLEPRON.

I'm not sure the spaceship pew pew part of the genre has anything going for it, but I hear Gundam Unicorn is a p good scifi novel.